The Whole Lawyer Podcast

AE (00:00.482)
I'm an I'm an attorney at the US attorney's office here in in Tucson. I've been doing that for about two years. So still still getting acclimated to the job. Yeah.

do you have any questions for me before we get started?

Tracy Simmons (00:17.612)
I mean, this is only the third time I think ever doing podcasts. So they've all been a little different. The first one was with a law professor. A law she's a dean actually. and then the second one was with two colleagues that work at another law school. and so yeah. Roger Williams, the Law for Law four one podcast, though. Yeah.

AE (00:23.231)
Yeah.

AE (00:27.134)
Yeah. Uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

AE (00:37.748)
Rebecca's I think I w I watched that one. I saw the one. Rebecca. Roger Williams, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, that was really good. That was a really good episode. Yeah. And you did great. Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (00:45.902)
Yeah. So it was fun. I mean, so I'm just trying to tell myself, like, just don't overthink it and just be present and just go with it 'cause I don't really know what I'm doing. So you know what you're doing and I'm just here to be a guest. So yeah.

AE (00:56.036)
no, you killed it.

AE (01:00.318)
No, you did great. You did great. All right. So we're gonna get started.

All right. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to The Whole Lawyer, the podcast, where we explore the people behind the profession. I'm your host, Akeem D. Earl. And every episode, we sit down with attorneys, judges, legal professionals, and change makers to have honest conversations about the law, purpose, identity, and the journeys that shape who they are beyond the courtroom. If you enjoy conversations like this, please be sure to subscribe wherever you're listening, leave us a review, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.

You can find The Whole Lawyer on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Now, today I am honored to welcome Tracy L. Simmons to the pod. Tracy is the Associate Dean of Admissions and Student Affairs at Howard University School of Law and has spent more than two decades helping shape the future of the legal profession. Throughout her career, she has led admissions, financial aid, diversity, and student affairs at several law schools.

And served in national leadership roles with organizations like LSAC, AALS, and CLIO. And she has dedicated her career to expanding access to legal education and mentoring the next generation of lawyers. She has also authored the second edition of Law School for Dummies and is currently co-authoring Critical Race Theories for Dummies. Today we are talking about what really goes into law school admissions, the biggest misconceptions applic applicants have.

How future lawyers can stand out, and the responsibility of building a legal profession that reflects the community it serves. Tracy, thank you so much for joining me. Welcome to the Whole Lawyer.

Tracy Simmons (02:46.241)
You thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

AE (02:48.169)
Of course. Of course. I I also wanna give a shout out to Shawla for making the connection. Shawla has been amazing in in in my legal profession. So yeah.

Tracy Simmons (02:57.111)
She's she's a an amazing human who connects a lot of dots for a lot of people.

AE (03:02.217)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep. So show Shaw, this is dedicated to you. Just shout out to you. Shout out to you. All right. So Tracy, the opening question for the whole lawyer is if I was not, in your case, a law school admissions counselor and 30 years in the legal profession, I would be a what?

Tracy Simmons (03:09.025)
Yes, absolutely.

Tracy Simmons (03:20.343)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (03:25.985)
You would be a, I would be a, well, hmm. One, I would either be some type of like travel guru who was traveling on other people's dimes and basically evaluating hotels, restaurants, and all that good stuff, or I would be some type of like sports liaison life coach person for people coming out of college into

AE (03:41.897)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (03:55.638)
specifically professional football and basketball, but maybe even now as I'm learning to love soccer more and even hockey, just 'cause I feel like there's just all these missing pieces that I just when I watch some of these athletes, I just wish they had someone that was connecting all the dots for them, in terms of really thinking through their contracts and thinking through their image and thinking through

AE (04:03.997)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (04:23.277)
how to be there for their families, especially the first gen ones, while also ensuring that, you know, in three years or twenty years they have money to live on. you know, and so I just I I I always think about like I would love to be kind of that bridge between what I somehow think is missing between the agents and the coaches and the mentors and so I know random, I know, but yeah, that's

AE (04:31.729)
Mm-hmm.

AE (04:42.461)
Yeah.

No, that's really dope. That's really dope. So it's either like an influencer or like a sports manager agent. No, I love it. No, I love it. I love it. It's interesting enough. Whenever I ask people in the profession that question, sports come up a lot, either like sports journalist or coach or sports just playing the sport. I don't know. There's some connection between lawyer law and sports. Like that's people's like, mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (04:51.401)
Uh-huh. All over the place. All over the place. I'm very much a Sagittarius.

Tracy Simmons (05:08.983)
Well, don't you think so though? Like, don't you think sport I mean, I feel like sports serve a lot of different purposes and I think, you know, in terms of like team structures and in terms of discipline and focus and dreams and, you know, being hoped hopeful and optimistic because so many people don't make it to that level. And so yeah, I could see I could see that.

AE (05:20.285)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

AE (05:30.569)
True. Yeah. No, I love that. No, that's just real. That's absolutely real. And so you can tell me if I'm wrong. You kind of do that in your full time job where you're you're bridging the gap between what you feel like law students are missing and and helping them out along their journey. Break down about what you do right now.

Tracy Simmons (05:51.254)
Yeah, so I feel like part of what I do is help people understand a little bit about why they're pursuing a lot degree. Like I think it's super important that, you know, this is something that a person chooses for themselves. it's too hard, it's too expensive, it's too emotionally draining to do it just because someone else wants to do it or because you don't have any something something else to do.

And so I think part of my job is is is educating people about the fact that they can do it, because I get a lot of applicants who are being told, you know, because they're first gen, because of their gender, because of their language skills, because of their ability status, that they can't do it. So I feel like part of my job is to help them see that they can. Two, I think another part of my job is just communicating that

AE (06:17.502)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (06:41.719)
There's so many things you can do with this degree. Like I think that the the narrative that's out there in the universe sometimes is that lawyers are just all sharks and or they're just in the courtroom all day f doing criminal stuff. And it's like, that's just not it. Like, you know, you you have this really huge opportunity to be with people on their best or their worst days.

AE (06:55.902)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (07:03.693)
and so I love to be able to to to work in like the pipeline space with, you know, K through twelve folks or even junior college community college folks to get them to see why they should consider a law degree. because I really do think there's just tons of options out there. And the last thing I would say would be that I think part of my other job is really to help people understand and break down the process so that it's manageable because I think it it can be overwhelming and it can be intimidating.

AE (07:04.104)
Yeah.

AE (07:19.048)
Mm-hmm.

AE (07:29.459)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (07:32.823)
But if you break it down, slow it down, just take it for what it is and kind of create a checklist of some sort or a list of some sort, I feel like most people can manage it way better than they expected. And they will find themselves on the other side of it being happier with the results if they kind of take the time and slow down and think through it.

AE (07:46.643)
Mm.

AE (07:52.275)
Yeah. Why should people go to law school?

Tracy Simmons (07:55.82)
I think you have to want to further educate yourself and you want to have to change things. I mean, and whether that be that you want to change policies as it relates to student athletes, or whether it's that you want to change policies around family and adoption law, or whether you want to create policies for small business owners.

AE (08:10.429)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (08:18.905)
Or you wanna change, you know, international treaty laws, you know, related to human rights or water rights or things of that nature. Like you have to want to do something that's going to impact your community, a business, a cause in some way. I do think personally, I I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting to go to law school because they want to change the generational wealth of their family. I think it's a and it's a it's an advanced degree for a reason. It is costly for a reason, and there's a reason that people

AE (08:19.219)
Mm.

AE (08:23.112)
Yeah.

AE (08:41.673)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (08:47.735)
really don't function in our society without lawyers and judges. And so I think you should go to law school if you want to have an impact in a very different way on on society. I mean, and that could be, you know, historically in terms of constitutional law, or it could be you know, something as simple as, you know, real estate and construction law and and and and redlining and understanding the rules that pertain to banking and how they impact, you know, more impoverished communities versus wealthy communities and things of that nature. So I just think you have to know

AE (09:09.021)
Mm-hmm.

AE (09:16.339)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (09:17.963)
You don't have to know exactly what type of law you want to practice, but you definitely need to know that you're willing to work hard and that you're actually open to learning a very different way of thinking, writing, speaking in some instances, and and backing up facts with evidence. You know, like if you're someone, you know, I get all the time like, I was told I was a good arguer when I was a kid, so that's why I went to law school. It's like that's not it. Like you y y y you you need more than that to to get to get through law school and to be a successful attorney, judge, etc.

AE (09:36.488)
Mm-hmm.

AE (09:42.649)
Yeah.

AE (09:46.218)
Yeah. I would say about seventy percent of the attorneys I've had on that was their origin story. Somebody told them that they're good at arguing. So they pursued, including me. So

Tracy Simmons (09:47.787)
So yeah.

Tracy Simmons (10:00.567)
I've seen thousands, thousands and thousands of personal statements that say something similar. And I'm like, uh-huh. Okay. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I mean, everyone thinks they're unique in that regard. And it's like, you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. You'd be surprised how often you hear that.

AE (10:11.856)
Mm you know.

AE (10:16.329)
Yeah, not that special. man. So sp speaking of unique, what how can somebody separate themselves? Like what what personal statements do you read that g make you go, this this is impressive?

Tracy Simmons (10:28.193)
So if if several of my colleagues were with me right now, if we were sharing the zoom screen or the thing, they they would cringe because I always cringe when I hear this question from applicants. They say like, Well, how can I send out Dean Simmons? How can I make myself? And it's like, Ugh, that's not really your job. Like your job is really to show that you can follow directions and that you are being authentic and genuine and that you really understand what you're trying to pursue. I

AE (10:36.807)
Yeah.

AE (10:43.774)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (10:56.351)
I think that the one way that you could separate yourself is that you could actually demonstrate that you follow directions because so many people don't follow directions in this process that it's wild. Like I'm I find myself shocked 27 years later, the number of applicants who literally will submit a document that's a page over than what we requested. And it's like, why why would you do that? And and we try to explain, like, so you do understand that when you're a lawyer.

AE (11:03.368)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (11:24.405)
If you go to court and the judge said, I want three pages for you to you know, so you can explain why this person shouldn't go to jail, and your best argument is on page four. Page four could be in the trash, depending on how harsh she is or how tired she is that day or what have you. and so following directions I think is such an overlooked tool in this process that it would get so many candidates much further. I also think that one way you could possibly

AE (11:35.592)
Yeah.

AE (11:46.717)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (11:52.928)
Make yourself look like a formidable candidate is to actually tell your story. I mean, I feel like people spend so much time trying to think through what they think the admissions committee wants to hear versus actually telling their own story. And you're unique in telling your own story by its own right because the two of us could have the same LSAT score, same GPA, same major, have gone to the same school.

AE (12:07.101)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (12:20.865)
Raised in the same town, gone to the same high school, and our stories will still be unique and different because our motivation, our family background, you know, what we've been exposed to, what we want to be exposed to will all be different. And so I do think that, you know, there's something to be said for keeping it simple and just not overthinking it. and and really just, you know, being

AE (12:23.079)
Mm-hmm.

AE (12:27.656)
Yeah.

AE (12:35.976)
Yeah.

AE (12:39.773)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (12:45.335)
thorough and thoughtful. I mean, I think, you know, you know as a practicing attorney that, you know, paying attention to detail is everything. And, you know, and so when you are submitting an application and you try to use the same personal statement for 10 schools, inevitably when you're not slowing down, you're going to submit, you know, that application for the University of you know, Arizona for the University of Colorado.

AE (12:53.394)
Yes.

Tracy Simmons (13:12.353)
Because it's y because if you're rushing and you're not paying it, it's going to happen because you're just you're not being authentic and genuine. You're just changing that one little through line and it's inevitable that you saved it in the wrong folder and you just forgot because you're trying to get them all in because you want to go on vacation this weekend. Like it just happens all the time. There's not a year that's gone by where I've not seen a a good candidate, you know, statistically make that kind of mo you know, faux pas. And I have worked at institutions where faculty members are like, Well, you know

AE (13:13.097)
Mm-hmm.

AE (13:18.023)
Right. Yeah, copy and paste.

AE (13:36.574)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (13:40.748)
We have too many applicants and so few seats. And if they can't bother to double check what they're submitting, I'm I don't need to read the rest of this. And so again, that's the way that you often stand out in a negative way. And so it's just not worth it. Just slow down, follow directions, and just be thoughtful about what you're trying to communicate to each school. And you will you will separate yourself that way because so many people aren't doing that.

AE (13:58.15)
Yeah.

AE (14:03.547)
That is such a great skill to learn early because I practiced in federal court and I had a trial and we had to submit a pretrial memo and I I put together the whole memo. I had all my exhibits in there, witnesses, and I went back to the scheduling order from the judge, and he had a very specific way that he wanted his pretrial memo. He wanted the exhibits listed under an alphabetical order. He wanted this and that. And I had to go back and redo everything. Even though it was

All my information was in there. It was orderly. It was clean. It was grammatically correct. But I had to change it all because the judge asked for this in a very specific way. And I can't just submit it to the court and be like, take it how you want it. No, you have to follow direction. Yeah, yeah. No, you absolutely have to that's a great, great skill. Wow. and also like when you spoke about telling a story, I I think people underestimate how how how interesting people are.

Tracy Simmons (14:31.275)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (14:43.009)
I just have it. Nope.

AE (14:57.915)
actually are. I feel like everybody has if you if actually sit down with most people, they have something interesting to say. I think a lot of people get caught up in like I guess celebrities or influences and think that they're the only ones with interesting stories. Like, no, you have a very specific story that somebody will find interesting. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (15:14.697)
Social media, I and I will often say this. I will say, like, social media has led y'all to believe that you are not special enough or unique enough, or you have to do something, you know, crazy to stand out. And it's just not true. and so that's unfortunate, right? Because again, there's a wasted opportunity. You know, we're trying to build a class, I'm building a community, and I'm building on a legacy, and so I want to be thoughtful about who I'm bringing into the profession.

AE (15:23.388)
Mm-hmm.

AE (15:28.53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

AE (15:36.809)
Hm.

Tracy Simmons (15:42.551)
But I'm also being thoughtful about who I'm bringing into the community and who I'm sitting in the classroom with other folks and ultimately who is going to go out there and change the world for you know, hopefully for positive. and so being able to just tell me who you are is more than enough. So

AE (15:42.867)
Yeah.

AE (15:52.638)
Yeah.

AE (15:57.704)
Yeah. I in in the podcast I was listening to that you did today, you didn't do it today, but I was listening to it today. you said something interesting. You said when you're choosing people, you're choosing people you can successfully educate. And I haven't heard it put that way before and I and I love that. How can you tr how can you know that you can successfully educate somebody at the outset?

Tracy Simmons (16:21.419)
I mm, I think it comes from definitely from years of doing this. I will say that being a social worker I think has helped me in a lot of different spaces in my life. And I think that, you know, being able to kind of sit and actually like read and or listen to people will give you a lot of insight in terms of who they are, what drives them, what motivates them.

AE (16:27.049)
Mm-hmm.

AE (16:30.545)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (16:45.913)
you'll learn a little bit more about their heart, right? And so I think that you know the L sets or in the GPA will tell me something. The letters recommendation will tell me something else. You know, but what you choose to focus on in your statements, who you chose to write your letters recommendation, those also tell me things about you. And so I think that when we're evaluating applications, you know, we are trying to think about who is going to come into the space.

AE (16:49.801)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (17:12.853)
and blossom and and and flourish, you know, like if you s if you're so regimented that you don't come across as someone that is open-minded enough to be taught, that's a challenge. Cause then I'm thinking about my faculty members and you know, I don't want them coming back like, why did you admit her? Like she doesn't listen to anybody. Like she's given a hard time. I just, you know, I I've done this for 30 years and I'm telling her this of the principal and she's arguing with me in class about why it's not. And so, you know, and I will say to applicants like, you know, this is one of those opportunities where I'm looking to see

AE (17:26.83)
Just give me a hard time? Yeah.

AE (17:33.073)
Hm.

Tracy Simmons (17:41.25)
Whether you have that mixture of humility along with confidence. Because I think in law school, as you probably remember, you know, there were probably times when you went into class, you read something three or four times, you were preparing because you knew you were getting called on, and you had a whole thought process about why the case was decided the way it was and what facts would have made a difference and what principles or policies would have made a difference. And your professor comes out of the blue with something, you're like, Yeah,

AE (17:45.897)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (18:07.881)
I that's not at all on my radar and I didn't see it, wasn't thinking it and I don't even know if I'm really feeling it. But in that moment you understand that he or she is telling you, This is how I see it and for my midterm or my exam, this is how I expect you to argue this particular fact, you know, kind of thing. And so I think the other part of it is just really looking to see, you know, like what they've exposed themselves to. have they challenged themselves in other ways? have they always just played it safe? Because I think it's important that in these spaces that

AE (18:08.104)
Yeah.

AE (18:11.574)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

AE (18:22.841)
Exactly. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (18:37.441)
you you you can't completely pay it safe. You know, you have to be able to come in class and be vulnerable and and you have to be able to raise your hand and sometimes get it wrong. and I think that for the people who are super black and white, those those are the folks that struggle in law school, right? Because the the professors, you know, they're gonna give you something and the case is going to say something else and five other classmates are going to see it completely differently. And you have to be able to listen enough to not get caught up in your own thoughts so that your notes are thorough enough

AE (18:47.465)
Mm-hmm.

AE (18:52.987)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (19:07.379)
When you go create your outlines and your note cards, you're ready for that final, irrespective of what your personal thoughts were. And so I think it's a combination of those things. I know it's a long-winded answer to that, but I feel like it's a lot of things that kind of for many of us that have done this for a while, you know, we say it's kind of like art and science. And that's kind of what we mean. Like, you know, it's some of it's that gut instinct that you have about someone. And then some of it's looking, it's like, what are they saying about themselves?

AE (19:13.449)
Hundred percent. No, that's real.

AE (19:23.741)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

AE (19:28.466)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (19:32.386)
What are they not saying about themselves? How do they explain things? And so the last example I'll give you is a good indicator about someone's openness and willingness to learn is how they explain a mistake they made. And whether they take responsibility, whether they have any ownership, or whether they completely blame the system, the teacher, the professor, the parent, the what because we all make mistakes. But I was raised, my parents were very much like if I came home and said,

AE (19:37.446)
Mm-hmm.

AE (19:47.465)
Hm.

AE (19:58.856)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (20:01.973)
Such and such said something to me, and they'd say, So what did you say? And I feel like, like you know, and so I I kind of have I try to bring that into my kind of world in terms of like always trying to be be thoughtful about like they're often two sides of things, but you know, having that ownership and level of responsibility I think is super important, particularly for this profession, right? Because you're responsible. I mean, I tell like you're responsible for someone's life, liberty, and property at some point.

AE (20:05.577)
Mm-hmm. Right. I left that part out.

Yeah.

AE (20:24.446)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (20:28.737)
you know, for some of these folks, they're gonna be twenty three years old when they graduate from law school or they're gonna be twenty seven years old and will have, you know, only held two or three jobs and will literally be responsible for someone's company that, you know, is about is about to go bankrupt, or literally helping someone, you know, fix an adoption, you know, situation that went wrong or what have you. And so just trying to think through like, you know, where can I see them in three or four years, and and and how will they kind of show up in the classroom.

AE (20:29.011)
Yeah.

AE (20:40.297)
Yeah.

AE (20:51.048)
Yeah.

That's so real. That's not something I even thought about being in law school, like the open-mindedness. I feel like I was just like thrown into it and I had to be open minded. Cause like you said, especially in like crime pro, crime law, and you're like, no, this is wrong. This no way. This is the law. Wait, this is still a law? This wasn't overturned. Like all that stuff. I'm like, no way. And you're like, listen, you better write that as the law, as the rule or the test, because I don't care how you it's not about how you feel, is what you could prove.

Tracy Simmons (21:05.175)
No.

Yes.

Tracy Simmons (21:18.829)
Mm-hmm.

AE (21:22.247)
And I feel like, yeah, I didn't know I I had to get that skill or I even had that skill to be open minded to be in that sp but that's a hundred percent you you have to. Yeah. Man. so what made you what made you even want to be in this profession in the first place? What made you want to form the future generation of the legal field? And not and then and not practice it yourself, not practice law yourself.

Tracy Simmons (21:29.549)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (21:46.07)
Yeah, so I was not someone who always thought about law school. Like I I if you asked me when I was pledging or just in college, I always said I wanted to be a child psychologist. And you know, and and I I don't know, I that's I thought that was my thing. And then I did a master's program in education and the emphasis was on multicultural counseling. It was like a year-long community baseball program, so kind of intense.

AE (21:50.408)
Mm-hmm.

AE (21:54.632)
Mm-hmm.

AE (21:58.282)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (22:13.233)
and was like, this is so deep. And I just learned I learned a lot about myself and and then I did a year-long research project and then I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing. And I had an aunt who kept saying, You should go be a social worker. And I'm like, Why? Like, I don't even know what social workers do. Like, I don't understand why you keep saying this. Now, turns out that probably changed my life in in so many good ways that I just didn't even anticipate. But what it did was that it exposed me to the foster care system and

AE (22:13.289)
Mm-hmm.

AE (22:17.799)
Mm-hmm.

AE (22:28.617)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (22:42.463)
a whole way of gosh, how systems work and don't work and how lots of people don't communicate. And so I was shocked. I was twenty three years old when I started that job and I had my own thoughts about how family came together. I grew up in a family where I never really heard people refer to someone as like a step cousin or step mother like like we just didn't that's just not

AE (22:58.887)
Mm-hmm.

AE (23:04.977)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tracy Simmons (23:08.521)
in my family, that's not what we did. You know, I was in the mid my bad was in the military, so we moved around a lot. So knew lots of different configurations of family. But so long story short, I kept working with all these kids and I just didn't understand why all the attorneys weren't talking. Like I like the foster care agency I work for, I started working for a private foster care agency had an attorney. The county had an attorney.

AE (23:10.835)
Same.

Mm-hmm.

AE (23:30.782)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (23:31.704)
The biological parents, if they were together, had an attorney or if they were separated, had their own attorneys. The kid or kids would have their attorney. The school would have one. On and on and on. And I was like, So is no one talk like I don't understand why no one's talking to each other. I was like, this doesn't make sense to me. And I'm like, and why is no one asking this child what they want? And so that's what led me to even just be interested in law school. And then I was like, Well, let me just apply to law school. I think and my parents were like, What? And I was like, Yeah, I don't know. I'm just gonna do it. And then when I was in law school,

AE (23:36.969)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Man.

Yeah.

AE (23:57.242)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (24:01.333)
I kept going to the admissions and financial aid office and I was like, So what is this job? I was like, No, what do y'all do? and at the same time, I was like, I think I probably would maybe be a public defender and I had two or three mentors. and I was involved in all the groups, of course, 'cause social and whatever. So like one of my mentors from a PALSA, the Asian Pacific Islander group, and another one from LASA, the Latino group and Balsa, were like, You probably should get experience in the DA's office first, just to see. And I like, Okay, like

AE (24:05.755)
Wow.

AE (24:12.627)
Hmm.

AE (24:18.362)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

AE (24:29.289)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (24:30.869)
And in my mind, I thought, well, that makes a lot of sense because it probably makes really good attorneys, like if you have experience on both sides. And there were a lot of people that I met, there were, you know, mentors and judges and attorneys who had done a little bit of both. it was San Francisco. And so it if if you think about that, it makes sense because the approach is, for example, at the San Francisco DA's office, if you were going to arrest like street walkers, you know, women of the night.

AE (24:37.0)
Mm-hmm.

AE (24:43.817)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

AE (24:53.193)
Yeah.

AE (24:57.011)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (24:58.023)
they were very focused on the fact that they shouldn't just be arresting the women. They were focused on the fact that let's talk to the Johns too. Like, why are you out here pursuing this? because literally this wouldn't be an issue if you weren't out here, you know. And so I was like, That's a that's a good approach, right? You know, and so I was like, I love this. And then I ended up doing a a trip to my admissions office was like, Hey, can you go to New York for us for a recruitment trip? And I was like,

AE (25:04.689)
Mm-hmm. Right.

AE (25:10.382)
Painful, yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (25:25.229)
I was like, wait a minute. I was so you're gonna send me to New York to stand at a table to talk about the school, and then you're paying for my hotel, flight, food, whatever. I was like, that seems like the best job ever. Not no no no had had I known, I don't know, you know, maybe I was still I I would be here, but you know. and so I was like, this is awesome. And then I did another, you know, I did two like two more stents maybe at the DA's office, and then I did a federal externship with a magistrate judge.

AE (25:28.53)
yeah.

AE (25:33.841)
Mm.

AE (25:41.703)
Yeah, yeah.

Tracy Simmons (25:52.574)
in the kind of had civil court and some other stuff and I like, this is kind of cool. and then but I just I did the the year the the the semester after law school, a lot of schools will hire their grads to be seasonal recruiters. And so I met all these people and about half of them had law degrees, half did not. out of the half that had law degrees, some had practice, many had not. And I was like, I think this is my job. Like I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do. And so I went back and I said, hey, if a job becomes open in the next couple months

AE (25:52.594)
Nice.

AE (25:57.065)
Mm.

AE (26:04.524)
Mm-hmm.

AE (26:15.785)
Mm. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (26:21.431)
Please hire me because I think this is what I'm supposed to do. And so one of my good friends on the one on the Law 401 podcast, Michael Donnelly Boylan, we met that fall. and we we we didn't know we'd see each other again because he didn't know I would be back in the business and we've been best friends ever since. But I just I I think it just came to me that like this is where I could maybe have an impact. And I just really loved actually being out there and talking about the process and

AE (26:23.858)
Wow.

AE (26:28.49)
Mm. Yeah. Wow.

AE (26:38.225)
Awesome.

AE (26:44.521)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (26:49.345)
giving advice to people who like I didn't have any of this when I was applying. I didn't know what I was doing, you know. and so I just somehow ended up here and, you know, I feel like I don't know, God definitely directs my s I mean, I feel like there have been so many things in my life that I just did not plan on that have led me to the right place. And so I've just trusted that part of the process and felt like this was where I was supposed to be. And I've literally never looked back.

AE (26:50.141)
Hm.

AE (26:55.601)
Mm. Yeah.

AE (27:09.113)
Give us a

AE (27:16.861)
Yeah. And I yeah. And no, that's amazing. I love that. I always compare I always say it's a rhythm. I feel like life is in in the rhythm. It's like you can't yeah, it if it's you just know when it feels right. You just know when the next hit is, you just know when the next move is. d should I you just no, this makes sense. Like it this doesn't feel like I have to force myself to do it. And I feel like

Tracy Simmons (27:25.75)
I love that.

AE (27:45.116)
Even even in this process for law school, a lot of people feel like I need to be a lawyer. I need to practice in this specific area. And then you're in year three of law school and like you meet this one person or you go to this event and you're like, wait a minute, this feels really good. Like talking to this person feels really good. Or I do I do this internship and wow, this work feels really good. And being able to recognize that and be like, Okay, now this is how I I want to pursue it. So that that's that's amazing that you were able to recognize that. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (27:50.316)
Right.

Tracy Simmons (28:00.599)
really?

Tracy Simmons (28:04.834)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (28:13.517)
I also think in this political climate and in in in this in our in our world right now, the ability to pivot is so important. my dean of of career services of professional development, you know, she came onto a webinar we were doing probably last year, maybe, and you know, we asked our our career services folks to speak to these prospective students about like where things are. And one of the things she said was like, you all have to have the ability to pivot.

AE (28:22.023)
Yes.

AE (28:29.417)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (28:41.291)
She was like, you know, some of you may have dreamed about coming to law school and doing this one thing. And right now, that one thing may not exist. So, like, you know, the Department of Justice Honors program or you know, all these things that basically went away, you know, if that's all you wanted to do, you have to decide, do you really want to be a lawyer? Because it doesn't mean you will never get to do that work. But right now, or in the next year or three years, it might not be available.

You can still build the skill set, you can still do the networking and do all the other things to get you ready for whatever that might look like in the future. But if you really want to be a lawyer, attorney, you know, you're going to go to law school, get your skills up and you know, get all the things done and and and what and pivot. And so again, I've been talking about that a little bit more because I do think that even in this climate right now, with the law school process being so competitive, I I feel like for many candidates,

AE (29:06.024)
Yeah.

AE (29:17.673)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

AE (29:30.962)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (29:33.058)
that's been probably their most important thing. So I love the rhythm you know, part of that because I feel like to maybe some people that might resonate with them a a little bit more. Cause you just have to kind of go with it sometimes. And I I I'll I'll lastly say like one of the struggles I think is that you have a lot of law school applicants who are like, I want to go to this school. And if I don't go to this school, I'm not going to be successful. And it's like, well there are one hundred and ninety eight ABA law schools out there

AE (29:36.585)
Mm-hmm.

AE (29:42.364)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

AE (29:56.572)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (30:01.687)
Who have successful alumni around the world who are judges, attorneys, policymakers, health compliance officers, running corporations, et cetera. And I I promise you that you can still be successful if you don't go to the school that's allegedly ranked blah, blah, blah, this year, because it could be ranked something else next year and that's not gonna change anything, you know. And so I I I do think that that's part of our part of our job is to help our candidates see that they really do have options and that

AE (30:01.721)
Yeah.

AE (30:05.521)
Yeah.

AE (30:18.854)
Yeah.

AE (30:22.918)
Yeah.

AE (30:28.775)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (30:30.999)
they also just sometimes have to make a choice about, you know, your your your dream just may pan out a little differently. Your dream doesn't have to go away because you didn't get into that one school. But if these other two schools gave you an opportunity, that's where your blessing is. And so maybe that's where you're supposed to be. And so I I'm hoping for for many candidates that they can figure that out because I I know like this cycle has been really tough on a lot of folks. but then you know because again the numbers don't always tell the whole story, but also

AE (30:45.413)
A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

AE (30:54.494)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (30:58.465)
When the numbers are so competitive and we have so many people wanting to go to law school, there's just not room for all of them. So

AE (31:03.593)
That's real. And I and I wonder if that's something that you you you don't learn until you get to the other side. Like one of those things like I could tell you I could beat you over the head with it all I want, but you don't learn. Cause even practicing now, I didn't know how much or how easy I don't say easy, but the space I have to pivot now that I'm barred and I'm a barred attorney. Because at the first end of that is that you gotta learn all this anyway. Like me working

Tracy Simmons (31:23.553)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (31:32.173)
Absolutely.

AE (31:33.642)
You I had to learn my job from scratch. Law school taught me like the core traits, but like learning the actual job, who to talk to, where to file, w when to show up to court, how to check account, you gotta learn that anyway. You have to learn the statutes that you that you use. So whatever arena that you pivoted, you're gonna have to learn from scratch anyway. So it takes a pressure off of like, if I didn't practice contract law in law school, there's no way I could be a contract attorney and that's just not true. So yeah.

Tracy Simmons (32:00.706)
That's not true.

AE (32:03.251)
It's interesting you mentioned about the rankings of the law school. Even that, I feel like you may not recognize until you're on the other side of how much it matters, but not really. Like how and also with this new generation, it feels like Gen Z and Gen A have have come into like an awakening about like the job market, about like what am I getting out of this? And the pay and not being able to afford homes and not being able to afford things, and they're able to recognize like I I may this may not be the best system.

Tracy Simmons (32:24.279)
Mm-hmm.

Eso.

AE (32:33.127)
But somehow, like you talked about, they're still obsessed with the rankings. it may not be a one-to-one. Why do you think people still care about the rankings? You would think in twenty twenty-six people have like come to an awakening of like, rankings don't matter. I'm not gonna oblige by these big institutions, but it's it's still it still matters. How why does it still matter in twenty twenty-six?

Tracy Simmons (32:52.107)
Yeah. I I I think I mean, I think we're all at fault to some degree, right? Because I think that we we we even treat people differently based on the rank of where they work. I mean, I've watched people who have gone to law schools that are not ranked work at a law school that's highly ranked and be treated completely differently in terms of opportunities and things like that. And so I think that that lends itself to right. I've watched I've watched

AE (32:57.799)
Mm.

AE (33:08.105)
Mm-hmm.

AE (33:12.185)
Yeah.

Hm.

Tracy Simmons (33:21.281)
You know, in in the consulting space, I've watched people make choices about who they want to work with based on rank, irrespective of the fact that maybe they have twenty less years experience than someone else. I've watched people turn down opportunities. I had I had someone tell me once that he was only applying to three schools and if he didn't get into one of those three schools, he was not going to law school. And I was like, So you don't want to actually be an attorney.

AE (33:45.065)
Hm. Exactly.

Tracy Simmons (33:46.582)
Which as someone who is a gatekeeper for the profession, I'm fine with because that your your motives are not on on par with what the s the the the profession is really about. I I think we rank everything. I mean part of the challenge is like we you we rank cars, we rank cameras, and so I think it's easy to fall into that trap. I I agree with you that I have found that there are definitely more candidates that are way more sophisticated these days than in the past in terms of looking beyond it.

AE (33:49.684)
Yeah.

AE (33:57.169)
Mm.

AE (34:01.945)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (34:14.533)
you know, I'm I'm in a space where I'm at a HBCU and there are only six of us, you know, and and if you look at the stats, I mean my employment stats are so competitive compared to many other schools, irrespective of where they're ranked. And so I get a lot of really strong candidates who realize like, so to be successful, I just need the right mentors and I need to do the right networking and I'll be okay. Yeah, actually that's that's it, because you can go to

AE (34:14.729)
Mm-hmm.

AE (34:20.105)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (34:42.497)
You know, I know some folks who have gone to some of the other schools and they didn't have the best jobs right out because they weren't ranked high enough in their class. You know, like there's some employers who, you know, if you're not in the top five percent, top two percent, you're not getting an interview irrespective of the rank of the school. And those same employers will take the top one percent at every school that they, you know, in their re So it's it's one of those things where I feel like, you know, we are in a weird quandary because I think there are also some universities

AE (34:42.621)
Legit.

AE (34:50.665)
Mm, mm hmm.

AE (34:55.529)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Tracy Simmons (35:11.713)
who are really, really focused on it, while there are others and I feel very blessed to be in the space I'm in right now where my faculty what they really care about are opportunities and placement. Like they're really focused on making sure that these students have exposure to as many types of law as possible and have as many opportunities as possible for internships and extrinships because they know that will make a difference at the end. but I I just think that it's it's a weird I I remember

AE (35:18.569)
Mm.

AE (35:23.313)
Mm.

AE (35:33.182)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (35:40.696)
When I cause I didn't know anything really about it. I didn't you I'm first gen. And so I was just like looking at schools everywhere in the Bay Area at that point. I was like, well, they all seem like good schools. I don't know. And having been on the other side, you know, on the side of it now, the amount of money that we spend because of the rankings. So I often tell the students like part of the problem is that because they're so focused on the rankings for for a variety of reasons.

AE (35:44.412)
Mm-hmm.

AE (35:49.392)
No

AE (35:58.826)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (36:07.211)
that's made the law schools focus on the rankings. And so that means that, you know, we don't have like as many like need-based scholarships. They're mostly merit type scholarships because everyone wants to move their LSAT or GPA. Well, the reality is that we probably have way more people that have need, you know, from a financial perspective than anything else. And so it's a it's an unfortunate quandary, I think. and it, you know, it's it's a magazine, as as one of my colleagues who does work at a very highly ranked schools has pointed out like

AE (36:14.493)
Mm. Hmm.

AE (36:27.613)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (36:34.889)
It's still just a magazine on some level. And, you know, we've watched them change, you know, the the the calculations and things like that for years and and you see schools moving. It's like, do you really think that school that went from one to three is really that from one year to the next? Like, look at their stat like look at look that their their grads are happy and they're doing just fine. And so it's a weird thing. I I wish it didn't have so much of a hold on applicants because I do feel like

AE (36:47.161)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

AE (36:54.865)
Mm-hmm.

AE (36:59.709)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (37:02.923)
I've seen many a student pick the wrong school for the wrong reason and it ended up unhappy. there was a study that was done. a professor that I have a lot of respect for who's now retired, but he was involved in a study from with the AALS and I can't remember if the ABA was involved or not, but basically it focused on it might have been first gen students of color and and and law school satisfaction. And basically the outcome was that.

AE (37:08.83)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (37:30.185)
many of them weren't unhappy with their law school choice because they chose for the wrong reasons as opposed to coming up with their own ranking of what matters to them. And so I tell candidates all the time, you know, what are the top five things that you really think you need to be successful in law school? What were the top three things that you liked about your undergraduate program? What didn't you like? And then create your own list of what your non negotiables are and what you're kinda like, it would be great, but I could live without it kind of thing. And then see how that matches up because

AE (37:35.87)
Man.

AE (37:40.093)
Right.

AE (37:50.718)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (37:58.434)
They don't necessarily rank all the things that are important to a lot of candidates. And unfortunately though, we often put that aside because I I've I've heard mentors like of my students who are practicing attorneys and judges say, Well, just go to the highest ranked school possible. Well, but what does that school look like for you? Like, you know, your age ring, your family background, your financial situation, you know, is this a good fit for you as opposed to just being the highest ranked school? And for some people that might work out, but it doesn't work out for everyone. And so

AE (38:12.822)
Mm. Right. Yeah.

AE (38:27.497)
A hundred percent. Yeah. Wasn't weren't they weren't certain certain schools like stopped ranking? I f was it I think it's either Chicago or Yale said they they're no longer gonna rank. Is that still happening? Are people like dropping out of the

Tracy Simmons (38:36.941)
I don't really know because my school so doesn't pay attention to it. I'm not really sure. There was a there was a full year or so where people were just did not, you know, didn't want to participate because they felt like, you know, some of it was just off. Like and I remember being in some meetings at some of our major conferences where there were lots of questions being posed about like, you know, what's the calculation? What's the formula? You know, why are you changing this? And there weren't really great answers. and I think it just left some folks feeling like

AE (38:41.703)
Yeah.

AE (38:50.547)
Yeah.

AE (39:00.113)
Right.

Hm.

Tracy Simmons (39:05.941)
Ugh, this is a mess. and then I think, you know, I think for some of the law schools and some of the deans and and folks, I think they were put in a weird situation because if your university is saying, We really care about this and you're going to submit it no matter what, then what do you do? Right? You risk getting and so I think that put people in a tough spot too. But there were some people who, you know, that just said, like, we're not gonna participate this year, and then we're back to normal and you know.

AE (39:20.786)
Yeah.

Right.

AE (39:27.272)
Hmm.

AE (39:32.138)
That's real. Yeah. No, I agree. And I and yeah, I went to UDC. It's not ranked. And I as you funny you mentioned the DOJ Honors Program. I got into the DOJ Honors Program. And honestly, that was one of my biggest fears. Even when I would go to like the interest meetings where DOJ attorneys were talking to us, in my head, I was literally saying, There was there's no way I'm gonna get this. There's no I'm gonna get this. They're not gonna pick me. Like I don't I don't go to Yale, I don't go to Harvard. That's all they choose.

Tracy Simmons (39:48.866)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (39:53.729)
They're gonna pick me.

AE (39:59.814)
And I I applied twice actually. The first time, I don't think I submitted my application because I talked myself out of it. And I told myself I would never do that again. And then the next year I applied and got in. And it w it was it was just that fear of like, I know how the system works, I know how this goes. So there's no way I'm gonna be marketable in this space. But like you said, if you just the right internships, the right mentors, I interned at DOJ and I was still telling myself I wasn't I was working full time.

Tracy Simmons (40:08.555)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (40:15.468)
Right.

AE (40:28.037)
in DC, I had all these great attorneys that I had I was connected with. And in my head I was still like not enough, but it was more than enough. And I I wish I could, yeah, instill that into students of like what you have, the st the steps that you're taking, the opportunities that you're taking, it's more than enough. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (40:29.164)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (40:36.416)
More than enough.

Tracy Simmons (40:44.993)
I keep telling the applicants like we're and we've been on we've doing some sessions and I keep saying like just don't play yourself small. You know what I mean? Like don't put yourself in a box and and and and being humble is one thing, but you know, but like you said, talking yourself out of potential opportunities or telling yourself no before you even get yeah, I you just can't do that. Because again, closed mouths don't get fed. And so if you don't ask, you'll never know. And then you have to live with like, but what if? You don't ever want to put yourself in that situation. Like I think

AE (40:52.093)
Yeah.

AE (41:04.498)
Yeah.

Real.

Yeah.

AE (41:13.969)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (41:14.827)
You just don't want to have regrets where you just didn't even try. Like let them tell you no. Don't tell yourself no before you even put yourself in the game.

AE (41:18.951)
Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Have you experienced that in your profession? Like has there been moments in your profession where you felt like you weren't good enough to be a be a dean or to be in that missus?

Tracy Simmons (41:31.932)
my gosh. Let me tell you something. Like I that's funny you asked that because in the podcast I did with Dean Roberts, that she said something and I was like, yeah. Like when my colleague friend asked me to write the book, I was like, I was like, who? Me? Like, why me? Like and she was like, Why not you? And I'm like, but and then I just had to have a whole moment of like.

AE (41:39.369)
Mm-hmm.

AE (41:46.771)
Mm-hmm.

AE (41:55.388)
Hmm.

AE (41:59.956)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (42:00.192)
Okay, okay. applying for this fellowship. I've never done anything like it. And when we got into that first meeting, I was like, I don't even know, like I have never opened Google Scholar in my life. Like what are we supposed to use? Like, I mean, there like IRB, like we have to submit a committee, like what? And so I I f I but I feel like I can't tell my students and I can't tell my applicants not to keep pushing if I'm not going to do it myself, right?

AE (42:11.229)
Yeah.

AE (42:20.037)
Mm-hmm.

AE (42:27.633)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (42:28.869)
And I am very mindful of the fact that I am a black woman who you know, I have grandparents who, you know, weren't able to do so many things that I've been blessed to be able to do. And, you know, I remember my you know my dad talking about, you know, his dad being a sharecropper and, you know, how so many of them ended up going to the military because that was their only option. And so I try to be mindful that when I'm given these opportunities, I have to take advantage of them.

AE (42:41.864)
Yeah.

AE (42:47.442)
Mm.

AE (42:53.694)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (42:57.835)
because if not me then who? and to you know I and I'm a big believer in to whom much is given, much is required. And so I feel like I've been blessed along the way with great mentors and just things of that nature. And so it's so you know if you can give back, give back. But I definitely I I I mean that self-doubt, that self-talk thing, like sometimes I have to just top myself off the ledge like, okay, you need to just sit down and just do it. Like get it done.

AE (43:00.765)
Yeah, yeah.

AE (43:07.997)
Yeah.

AE (43:15.08)
Yeah.

AE (43:19.28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (43:25.975)
You're fine, you're gonna be okay. and it's gonna be fine. Like it'll be okay, you know.

AE (43:29.969)
And then and then you look back and it's just part of your resume, and it seems like so such a small part of your story. It's like, no, that that was a big mountain in my life. And that was a lot of my resume that it's crazy. It's crazy. So let's let's talk about the book. You wrote Law School for Dummies. Have you ever written a book before? Was this your first book you've written?

Tracy Simmons (43:42.465)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (43:49.952)
Never in my life. And I feel and I feel like I am the only person on the planet who had not ever planned to write a book. Because now every time I beat people are like, Well, I've been thinking about writing. I'm like, I have never ever thought about writing a book and now I'm gonna have two books out in one year. And I like I just yeah.

AE (44:08.371)
Man. That's crazy.

Tracy Simmons (44:17.035)
You know, it's it's it's one of those things that I'm I'm super grateful for the opportunity. I think that, you know, I tell people all the time that I think that I'm good at my job because I have so many great people from other law schools around me. You know, we we do a lot of events together and so I get to listen in on what they're sharing and and things of that nature. But I also get to learn from the applicants and students all the time. But I had no it like when I tell you this was not on like when she approached me, I was like,

AE (44:20.019)
Hmm.

AE (44:31.069)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

AE (44:38.749)
Yeah.

AE (44:47.945)
Who me? You did you get the right Tracy Simmons? I don't think the Tracy Simmons out the block. There might be Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (44:50.285)
Like who like who talking to? You know? So like like me? So yeah, I just I I I I feel very lucky though to have been in that space because it did let me reflect on the fact that I have learned a lot. and there are a lot of things that I would have done differently had someone been in my corner. had someone just, you know, but you know

AE (45:01.907)
Yeah.

AE (45:11.506)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (45:14.241)
for this is for all the people who don't have a pre-law advisor. If this was for all the people who've been out for a few years who don't feel like they know anyone that they could turn to and ask them basic questions about how this whole thing works. because it is it can be overwhelming, but the goal is to make it less so. and so if if if if there's anything that I say in there that gives someone a little bit of hope or a little bit of optimism or a little structure or something, I will be forever grateful that I was able to help someone.

AE (45:31.997)
Yeah.

AE (45:38.942)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (45:42.97)
because I I I I know so many people who didn't have the you know, they've just had to kind of wing it and figure it out on their own.

AE (45:43.315)
Yeah.

AE (45:49.63)
Yeah. And so isn't so for dummies, isn't it like a conglomerate is like this like a reading for dummies, riding a bike for dummies. So isn't like a a a whole entity, right? So they reach out to different people.

Tracy Simmons (45:57.966)
Yeah. So I actually have, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Wiley, it's it's so I it's funny because I was having this conversation with my mom a couple of months ago before the book came out and she was saying that she was talking to someone and they're like, yeah, I've been working on the book and blah, blah, blah. And then she's like, my daughter, blah, blah, blah. And so they're like, like that's a real publishing company. And she's like, Yeah. And so

AE (46:07.965)
Yeah.

AE (46:20.539)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (46:22.667)
Because I I've met a lot of people who have self-published and stuff. I don't know anything about that world because again, not on my radar. And and the level of energy that that would take, like I applaud anyone who's done that because that level of work is insane. And so it's a major publishing company. They have a lot of parameters about how you have to structure things. And because it's supposed to be for

AE (46:27.913)
Mm-hmm. I d I've not read about it, but I got you.

AE (46:34.759)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (46:47.625)
a lay person, you know, it's supposed to be for someone who does not have expertise in that area. It has to be really simplistic. And so one of my biggest concerns initially was, my gosh, like some of my writing professors or someone's gonna think like, what the hell happened? Because you have to use contractions, like things that you don't you don't do in legal writing. Like all the things that you learn in law school about writing, you don't, you know, you can't do that for the dummies 'cause it can't be that formal. It needs to be, you know

AE (46:49.617)
Right.

AE (47:08.381)
Yeah. Right.

Tracy Simmons (47:13.133)
And and so that was a initially a struggle. But then once you get into it, you kinda get a cadence and you're fine. But, you know, just trying to like one of my friends who is a dean of admissions at another school here in DC, she said, Why don't you just start off by talking to your phone? Like think about the subject and start talking to yourself like you were talking to a applicant. And what would you say? And that helped me a lot because I was like, Yeah, like this is I don't you know, I do this all day, every day, but I don't think about it like that.

AE (47:13.745)
Where you lay

AE (47:18.707)
Yeah.

AE (47:27.761)
Mm.

AE (47:37.478)
Mm. Mm. Right.

Tracy Simmons (47:40.354)
Like if you say, like, what's the what's the best thing to focus on in a personal statement? I could just rattle it off, whatever. But to sit and think, do how do I that was not my framework. And so that helped me a lot too. But they're very, very structured. You have a schedule, you have an editor. by the time we got to the end, I had an editor who had an editor, and so when I would get the stuff back, but they were both really good. And so that made it really easy for me because they both were very clear about like

AE (47:45.481)
Mm. Type of yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

AE (48:07.004)
Hm.

Tracy Simmons (48:09.663)
If they weren't, you know, they're like, You're the expert, we're not the expert. And so if we're asking a question and you think that our question is silly because of X, or if we say, Can you make this less complicated? you know, if they so they were really, really clear, and so that helped me a lot. but yeah, it was a it was a lot of work. Like I will not like it was a lot of work. Like I didn't I didn't realize

AE (48:14.822)
Mm.

AE (48:25.766)
Yeah.

AE (48:30.437)
I love that, yeah.

Tracy Simmons (48:37.055)
Even though I've done this for twenty seven years, the first book was written about thirty years ago. And what you don't realize is that how much stuff changes in thirty years. And so even just like language and you know, the the the number of times the LSAT is offered, or, you know, we weren't talking about neurodivergency back then, or we weren't talking about accommodations, we weren't talking about next gen bar and MPRE and all these other things in the way that we do now. And so I I

AE (48:41.594)
Hmm.

AE (48:49.085)
Mm.

AE (48:54.056)
Mm-hmm.

AE (48:59.153)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (49:06.207)
I didn't realize that I wasn't just kind of rewriting that there were a lot of things that I had to develop on my own because it was just brand new. which was fine, you know, but I just I going in and saying yes is different than the execution, you know. So

AE (49:11.365)
Yeah. Yeah. Man. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Man, that's amaz. So what's the biggest takeaway somebody could take from this book? Give them like a like a commercial for the book, if you will.

Tracy Simmons (49:31.53)
I would say, I would say that it's it's a book for anyone who's thinking about applying to law school, in law school, and is looking for just some general tips and general advice. I think that, you know, there are quotes in there from, you know, other law school professionals and practicing attorneys and professors. I think there are a lot of tips in there about how to.

kind of get out of your own head and get out of your own way. and I think that one person told me they they were reading it and they weren't totally convinced they were going to go to law school, but they've they obtained a lot of good life advice out of it that probably will help them if they're applying to another type of program. And I thought that was great. but ultimately I just think it's for it's for anyone that's, you know, going to law school, in law school, I think you'll find it's it's way more comprehensive than I think people expected.

AE (50:17.715)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (50:27.036)
'cause it really is from like how do you pick a law school to applying to what happens through the bar in your in graduation. So it takes you all the way through.

AE (50:27.345)
Hm.

AE (50:32.167)
Yeah. Nice. Awesome. It's funny 'cause usually when I started law school or when I would go to these different like events, the the without fail, a question is, What should I read before going to law school? Or is there a book I should read before going to law school? And most of the answers were don't read. You're gonna do enough reading in law school. Like you don't have to read notebooks. They will suggest yeah. They would suggest something here and there, but when I was looking through the the law school.

Tracy Simmons (50:47.373)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (50:55.169)
We still say that though.

AE (51:01.703)
Dummies, I was like, I would a hundred percent recommend this. Like this is the book you should read before law school. This this would actually be helpful and not some other book that you may think is gonna help you, but this is good, yeah.

Tracy Simmons (51:13.197)
There's another one that's out there. so there's a colleague of yours from UDC who I've done a couple book things with, Najabastik, who her I the title is slipping my mind, but I will share it with you via email. but it basically talks about coming from being dismissed to being barred. and she's a super successful attorney in Maryland now and doing great work. but in and so we've done some book stuff together because she has some really good perspectives about, you know, like

AE (51:17.737)
Mm-hmm.

AE (51:26.76)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (51:43.092)
it doesn't always it's not always linear, like everyone doesn't get in and they're all not not successful the whole way through and you just graduate. Like for some people it's bumps and stops and you have to kind of get back up on that horse and try again. And and then there's another one mindset in that one of the schools I worked for, you know, so much of what happens in this space is really about how you approach it and how you talk to yourself and how you think about yourself, but also managing your friends and family, especially for first gen students. Like

AE (51:49.769)
Mm. Yeah.

AE (52:03.529)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (52:09.677)
I I have found that for so many of my first end students and students from immigrant families and stuff, getting them to understand, you know, why you can't come for Sunday dinner every week or why you can't be the one to organize a family barbecue or the Bob Netzvah or the Quintanetta or why, you know, you cannot come home for Thanksgiving because final exams start three days later and you need to get all like really helping them understand how much of a management process this will be.

AE (52:21.683)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

AE (52:29.521)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (52:37.511)
is super important and I and I think that I've I've even had first gen students come back to me in their second or third and you're like, Can you do another session for families? Because my people just don't understand why, you know, I'm still, you know, having to put this much work in. And it's like if you've never gone to law school, you don't know why it could take someone two hours to read ten pages. Or why, you know, preparing for being called on, you know, is a half day process, depending on the professor, because I mean I had a professor who

AE (52:54.599)
Mm-hmm.

AE (53:01.768)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (53:06.283)
He was so picky about the pronouns and the what like if you got anything wrong, you were going to be at his whatever for the rest of the class. And so, you know, being on point is so important. and so, you know, not having that in your toolkit, I think, is something that's important. And so working on your mindset and getting your family members ready.

AE (53:11.047)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

AE (53:27.089)
Hundred percent, yeah.

Tracy Simmons (53:27.985)
I often encourage folks when they're participating in virtual events, for example, have your family or friend or your best friend or your spouse or your partner or your kids that are old enough to understand or your grandparents or you're close to, have them listen in the background so that they're hearing what the current students and alumni are saying about why it's so hard, about why it takes so much time, about why that investment, particularly in your first year, can make all the difference in the rest of your law school career.

AE (53:40.593)
Mm.

AE (53:44.857)
Tracy Simmons (53:53.512)
and also just reminding them that this is three or four years of sacrifice for the rest of your life and how it literally can make a difference in terms of what you experience. And so that's another one that I recommend. It's called Mindset. And it I think it's a really good, you know, a good one to start, you know, if you're gonna read anything in the summer. I wouldn't recommend reading all the things, but I definitely think that between, you know, between my book, between Naj's book, and between mindset, those are some good opportunities for you to kind of

AE (53:59.081)
Yeah.

AE (54:07.218)
Yeah.

AE (54:13.628)
Yeah.

AE (54:17.0)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (54:19.799)
think through what you need and in in and getting yourself in that space of being spiritually, mentally, physically, financially in a better space so that you start off on the right foot. Cause that's a chance for everyone to do, you know, to do it over. Whatever you did in undergrad or grad school, it doesn't matter. You you get the chance to start over and so you want to start on the right note when you get to and again, lastly, for for most of us, this is the last time we're going to school. Don't you want to make the most of it? You know, make the most of it.

AE (54:33.007)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

AE (54:44.361)
True. It's definitely my last time. It was definitely my last time for sure. Once I've graduated, I'm never stepping foot in school again. This was enough. This was good. This was it. so how how is writing the second book, Critical Race Theory for Dummies, especially in this climate, especially with books getting banned, critical race theory being attacked, and all this stuff? Like, how's that process?

Tracy Simmons (54:55.113)
A lot of people say that. A lot of people say that.

Tracy Simmons (55:12.255)
It's interesting. So my co-author is a good friend. We used to work together. he's a great writer. and the way we had to divide up the chapters and stuff, you know, it it's definitely fits our personality and stuff. I I think for me, what I'm finding to be the most challenging is as I'm trying to do research, I am finding myself just in some cases overwhelmed.

AE (55:42.569)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (55:42.762)
in some cases upset. You know, like I was working on the healthcare chapter and I ended up focusing on some stuff related to Henrietta Lax. and I I I read the book, you know, I've seen a lot of things. I thought I knew a lot, but as I did more research, I was just like, you know, what

AE (56:01.577)
It's worse than I thought. Man.

Tracy Simmons (56:07.137)
And then, you know, looking at like like Native American sterilization and the Tuskegee, you know, that but I just as much as I thought I knew, I'm finding myself like, or like education section, like that chapter, I was like, and I work in education, so I I I thought I knew some things and I'm like, my gosh, we have we have work to do. and so trying to find ways to

AE (56:12.541)
Yeah.

AE (56:25.545)
Yeah. Right.

AE (56:34.183)
Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (56:37.247)
make sure that I'm being educational while informative, but also being true to what critical race theory is really about. I mean, one of the reasons that I agreed to to work on this was because I felt like I I was stunned at the way people were attacking it. And then when I realized that most of them had never gone to like Kimberly Crenshaw's like summer school. Like I had gone to the C T C R T summer school like twice. And what they were saying, I'm like, I didn't learn any like I didn't learn anything about hating white people. I I was like, I don't understand

AE (56:41.938)
Mm-hmm.

AE (56:52.306)
Mm-hmm.

AE (57:00.861)
Nice.

AE (57:05.225)
Exactly, exactly.

Tracy Simmons (57:06.305)
Like w what where d where did this come from? But I've realized like with a lot of things we just let people take over the narrative and don't take the time to correct it. And that's just not right. Like it is a theory. And there there are lots of facts and evidence. And as I'm doing more and more research, I'm realizing like there are lots of ways in which this theory really does apply as it relates to, you know, discrimination and

AE (57:13.384)
Yeah.

Man. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (57:31.767)
inequity and you know, and not just about race or ethnicity, but you know, in terms of gender and age and socioeconomic status and your zip code and, you know, access to, you know,

AE (57:38.418)
Yeah.

AE (57:42.705)
Right. And like Kim Lou Crushaw always says the intersectionality of all those things too. Like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tracy Simmons (57:46.474)
my gosh, like it's it's deep and it's real. And I think that we would be much further along as soci as society if we all understood it. and so, you know, I think that's one of the reasons. I mean, you know, it we'll see how it's received, right? Like, it's definitely a controversial topic, but you know, if people can can take for what it is and and read it as you would read any other theory.

AE (57:56.169)
Mm-hmm.

AE (58:05.533)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (58:10.497)
you know, I think you could find yourself in a situation where you might learn some things and and and understand some situations better, understand some policy decisions better, you know, and understand why historically why some things have played out the way they played out and how they've manifested themselves into who we are today as a society. Because there's some historical stuff that I think people won't realize in terms of timelines and h or how long some things went on.

AE (58:10.686)
Yeah.

AE (58:17.502)
Yeah.

AE (58:28.361)
Hmm. Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (58:35.743)
Or even how recent some things are. Like I think that's the thing that will be probably alarming for some people is how recent some of these acts and policies are. So

AE (58:36.049)
Mm.

AE (58:40.4)
Yes.

Yeah. Amazing. there let's say there's a 15-year-old girl named Stacy, and she she wants to be a dean of admissions at a law school. What will you tell Stacy? What should Stacy do right now? What is what is a skill or trait or thing something she could do right now to be the next Tracy Simmons?

Tracy Simmons (59:06.637)
I I would tell her that that's not her goal. Her goal is not to be to be me. her goal is to go out there and really find the thing that makes her feel like she's making a difference. that, you know, whether that be in education and becoming a teacher, or whether that be, you know, in the social work space and becoming a social worker, or whether it be

someone who's gonna go run, you know, some major conglomerate and all the construction sites for some big real realtor. Like whatever that thing is, I would tell her, go do that and be great at it. and and and and to not let society's limits, let her you know her family limits get in the way of blocking whatever she wants to become. I think that it's super important that you find people that you can

AE (59:43.556)
Mm.

AE (59:55.987)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (01:00:02.369)
be mentored by with the idea that you don't have to do everything the way they did it though. And and and I would say be better than me. Like, you know, trust yours trust yourself, you know, trust your gut, trust your instinct, but also just explore. Like I I think being more open minded and taking more risk. Like if I were to do my life over, I would probably take more risk. I would have done a study about trip. I would have, you know, I would have figured out a way to just, you know, take that second I don't know. I just feel like

AE (01:00:04.489)
Mm-hmm.

AE (01:00:08.635)
Yeah. Hmm.

AE (01:00:17.384)
Mm.

AE (01:00:22.754)
Mm. Mm.

Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (01:00:31.797)
I would tell her to be herself, but also to be true and genuine to whatever her dreams are and to not forget what they ultimately are, irrespective of kind of what things block her path, to kind of just always keep her eyes on the prize. as my as one of my professors said in the summer before we started law school, I would always I would, you know, remind her to kind of keep that mantra of like, how bad do you want it? I am a Tupac fan, so.

AE (01:00:39.516)
Yeah.

AE (01:00:45.533)
Mm.

Yeah.

AE (01:00:57.213)
Hmm.

Tracy Simmons (01:00:59.609)
And and and to keep that at the forefront of her mind. You know, how bad do you want to be on the other side of this? How bad do you want to be that thing? Because ultimately you won't let money, you won't let an ability or disability or a circumstance get in the way. You'll find a way around it. And it may not be this year, maybe it's three years from now, but I would say stay the course, keep your eyes on the prize and just don't forget how bad.

AE (01:01:03.816)
Yeah.

AE (01:01:08.318)
Yeah.

AE (01:01:16.744)
Yeah.

AE (01:01:23.399)
I love that. And I'm glad you mentioned Pac because I have a game to end out the podcast. I I heard I heard you mention that new edition was your your people's. So I have a dydees RB group, this or that. And I'm basically gonna say a group versus a group, and you choose the group, and we'll see we'll see how how it goes. All right. New edition or voice to men?

Tracy Simmons (01:01:28.81)
Okay.

Tracy Simmons (01:01:46.038)
Okay.

Tracy Simmons (01:01:50.753)
Ooh, new addition.

AE (01:01:52.51)
Who new addition on Jodis That was a quick one too about but boy people have been hating on Boyster Man lately. I feel like people I feel like Boyster Man has been getting some hate lately. It's kind of crazy.

Tracy Simmons (01:01:53.876)
Yeah.

Tracy Simmons (01:02:03.32)
So I actually really I when they did the concert together, I was very hyped because I love seeing them in the same space because I think it gave people a different appreciation. I've always loved Boys and Men, but I I feel like lean towards New Edition. New Edition or Joe Dicey. Ooh, oof. I'm ha I might have to go old school Joe Dicey. Like, oof. Yeah. I know most of my friends will be like, what? But yes. Yes.

AE (01:02:21.095)
Yeah.

AE (01:02:25.191)
Mm-hmm.

AE (01:02:29.129)
Go for Jodice. Okay. Jodice or Drew Hill?

Tracy Simmons (01:02:34.114)
come on. dang it. I'll say Joe Dice.

AE (01:02:35.471)
AE (01:02:43.781)
Okay. Joe to see or one twelve.

Tracy Simmons (01:02:47.913)
come on.

AE (01:02:48.999)
What is it?

Tracy Simmons (01:02:53.864)
Ooh, I might go 112. I really like 112. I like 112.

AE (01:02:57.381)
Why? Why one twelve? Mm. One twelve or jagged edge.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:04.594)
my goodness. Come on, sir. It's not fair. I know. Okay, I'm gonna go jagged edge. Jagged edge, yeah.

AE (01:03:05.811)
What?

There's some legendary groups. These it makes you realize how many legendary groups they are, yeah. Nice, okay. Jagged Edge or Blackstreet?

Tracy Simmons (01:03:21.646)
Blackstreet.

AE (01:03:23.089)
Mm.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:25.1)
Yeah.

AE (01:03:25.513)
Black Street or SWV?

Tracy Simmons (01:03:31.638)
S D V.

AE (01:03:33.801)
SWV or or escape.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:38.142)
S Viv.

AE (01:03:41.609)
Mmm, SWV or TLC? This is a good one. I'm interested with this one.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:43.104)
Mm yeah.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:46.94)
my goodness.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:50.83)
I'ma say S W V.

AE (01:03:53.734)
Okay, SWV is better now. Okay. SWV or N Vogue. It's not like he was waiting on that one. He was waiting on In Vogue. SWV or Destiny's Child.

Tracy Simmons (01:03:56.002)
Yeah.

In vogue. Love in vogue.

AE (01:04:13.841)
No, sorry, invoke sorry, invoke or destiny's child. My fault. You said invoke.

Tracy Simmons (01:04:16.727)
In vogue.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

AE (01:04:21.302)
In vogue or Tony Tony Tony. Last one.

Tracy Simmons (01:04:26.072)
Tony, Tony, Tony.

AE (01:04:27.401)
That's the winner. Toady, Toddy, Tony is the winner. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, Tracy. This was amazing. Man, your story's inspiring. Just just just from your story about you, you saying you're writing two books in one year. I feel like a lot of people look at authors or some anybody in these spaces and they see the name and they think, this person must be like doing this for for 15, 20 years. And they don't know that this is just somebody who took a chance.

Tracy Simmons (01:04:32.76)
Uh-huh.

Thank you for having me.

Tracy Simmons (01:04:39.95)
No.

AE (01:04:56.517)
And I feel like that's inspiring to people who are probably facing a new thing and feeling like I'm not good enough and and hearing your story, hearing your journey is amazing. So thank you for sharing that.

Tracy Simmons (01:04:56.895)
Literally.

Tracy Simmons (01:05:05.998)
Try not to block my own blessings and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

AE (01:05:08.306)
Yeah. Good. I like that. That might just be the name of the podcast. This is what might just be named Don't Block Your Own Blessings. Thank you so much, Tracy, for being on. Of course, of course. This has been the whole lawyer. Awesome. All right. I'm going to press stop. I'm going to have it load up.

Tracy Simmons (01:05:17.282)
Thank you for having me.