The Whole Lawyer Podcast

AE (00:02.25)
let's get the thumbnails out the way.

AE (01:58.167)
Alright. You ready? I

Tonee Earle (02:00.16)
Aye ready.

AE (02:04.918)
right. Welcome back to the whole lawyer podcast. We got a very special episode for you guys. We're talking how it is to be a first generation attorney for the both of us, because we're both first generation, so it's gonna be fire. We're talking about the pros and cons of being a lawyer, and we're also talking about our legal interviews. We've done internships, you got lawyer, big big boy, big girl, lawyer jobs, and we're gonna discuss.

How we've done these interviews, some we'll get it might get into some tips and tricks how to do well on these legal field interviews. And we're gonna get into it. But before we start that, please like, share, and subscribe to the podcast, The Whole Lawyer. It helps us grow. It helps us get amazing guests to give you guys more stories, to get you to know these attorneys inside and outside of the courtroom. So today we have our beautiful co-host.

Miss Tony Earl, how you doing?

Tonee Earle (03:05.112)
How are you?

AE (03:06.126)
I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. but be before we we get into how it is to be a first generation, I wanna get your reaction to a video. So we're gonna do something different. We we're gonna share a little screen. All right, watch this. Part of the rundown. All right, watch this.

Tonee Earle (03:18.744)
A lot. A lot. A lot. This wasn't a part of the cast.

Mm mm. I've seen this. That's funny.

AE (03:58.011)
Tonee Earle (04:00.12)
Yeah.

AE (04:01.47)
I first first you're the judge. Wha how would you react if you're in your robe on the bench and somebody calls you honey like that?

Tonee Earle (04:12.694)
I'm not gonna hold you. It would depend on the case. If if we're dealing with like a a high class murder trial, I might be taken aback, but I'm not gonna harp on it. I'm I'm probably gonna think, you you and your wife be going at it. You know, you used to it. if it's if it's a little more low stakes, I'll probably just laugh it off. I probably 'cause I think that was

AE (04:15.64)
Yeah.

AE (04:26.382)
Was we really going through it?

Tonee Earle (04:39.584)
I think that was the hard part for him was like the judge had no real reaction and so he doesn't really know what to think and how to move forward. Yeah. So that that is funny though. I I mean I think everybody has a little Fordian slip now and then. I don't know that I've ever I don't think I've ever called a a judge honey or babe. So but I I think I think definitely possible when you when you're in that converse conversational like

AE (04:43.726)
Mm-hmm. How she's feeling, yeah.

AE (04:52.686)
Mm-hmm.

AE (04:58.38)
Right.

Tonee Earle (05:04.908)
back and forth and like how we argue. We always are babe. my mom always calls out, Babe, babe, babe, babe. so I could see it. I can see it. It's funny.

AE (05:06.253)
Mm-hmm.

AE (05:11.063)
Mm. Yeah. It looks like he was in like oral arguments though. It looked pretty serious. It looks like he was doing like a boot or something. Cast one other. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (05:19.528)
But when you're on a hot bench, if the judge is like going back with you in the hot and you're on a hot bench and the judge is like, but what about this? But what about this? And you trying to get your words out, it's like, Honey, cal calm down. Okay.

AE (05:30.178)
Yeah.

AE (05:34.617)
That'll be crazy if I call yeah, could my front instead of probably babe because if like when we're getting into like heated conversation, I'll be like, babe, babe, that'd be me, like me calling the judge babe. I don't think, you know, let me not say I would never, because you you can say that until it is you. But it'll I'll it'll be very hard for me to like be that position where I'll call it the judge like babe, or like, yo, come on, son. Or if I say something crazy like, you bug it. Like, I it would be but it it does get heated like that in those moments, especially.

Tonee Earle (05:39.384)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Tonee Earle (05:49.075)
Right.

Tonee Earle (05:53.768)
Rip. Rip.

Tonee Earle (05:59.284)
Right.

Tonee Earle (06:02.964)
Yeah. No, it does. It does.

AE (06:04.522)
Yeah. I mean you're doing like a a moot or you're doing an oral argument and the judges interrupting you and you're like, Bro, I'm trying to get my point across, please. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (06:09.558)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I always think it's funny. I've had pro say litigants call the judge your majesty, which always makes me laugh. It just always makes me laugh. Your majesty? Where where are we?

AE (06:17.966)
my gosh. That's so good. If you start to use that, that that's more fun than your honor. All right. So we are both first generation attorneys. And you saw it's crazy. I have to look up the definition. I was like, let me make sure I'm getting first generation. Yeah, I just want to make sure

Tonee Earle (06:28.745)
It is. It is.

Tonee Earle (06:41.528)
You had to look at the definition of a first generation attorney.

AE (06:45.662)
What qualifies as a first generation? So a f

Tonee Earle (06:48.554)
It's like in the name.

AE (06:53.55)
For the people who don't know, because I don't like to assume that people know something, all right? For our for our listeners, we welcome all people people who know what first generation is and people who don't. There's no illiterate listeners here, okay? a first generation law student is generally defined as a student whose parents did not graduate from a four year college.

Tonee Earle (06:59.074)
Fair enough.

Tonee Earle (07:02.984)
Beliterate and be illiterate.

AE (07:21.794)
the first in their immediate family to attend law school or the first to enter a professional legal career. Yeah. So I'll definitely mmm.

Tonee Earle (07:30.026)
Mm. I didn't know there were like three elements. I will say that I I just I didn't know the four year college. Well, I could see a first year a first generation college grad to meet none of your parents graduated from a four year university. but for a law student, you have no tr you have to go to law. I guess, you know, if you're coming overseas and you do the LLM program. Okay, I could see how that can fit in there. Okay. All right.

AE (07:44.61)
Want to agree. Right.

AE (07:56.643)
Right, right. And it's an or test, not an and test. So it's it's or these or different things. So it's fine. I watched a video the other day. She said when it comes to law school, imagine everybody's at the starting line of of a track race. And if you're a first generation law student, move ten feet back. If you're a immigrant, move another ten feet back. If you're a woman, move another ten feet back. If you're a black woman

Tonee Earle (07:58.869)
Right, right. Right.

Tonee Earle (08:21.096)
Yeah. Yeah.

AE (08:24.864)
And it's like to put it in perspective of the difficulty of being a first generation anything, because there's no blueprint. There's no direction. You're figuring this out on your own. And I could I could definitely say that that that's true for me and my journey. What about you?

Tonee Earle (08:29.364)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

for sure. I mean, having someone in your family, like when I when I discuss with like colleagues who don't who are not necessarily the same race as me, most of the time, my uncle was a lawyer, my dad was a lawyer, my brother's a lawyer. It's they they have lawyers in their family, so it makes sense that they can be twenty-five, recently graduating, you know, and and have a great career ahead of them. Whereas I think about the fact I had to go part time.

AE (08:56.759)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (09:11.766)
I didn't graduate till I was twenty nine. and it took me a while to really figure out where I want to go, what I wanted to do. but but I will say, you know, while I didn't have family members that could kind of advise me on my route, I did have some really good mentors that made up for being a first gen law grad and and figuring out what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go.

AE (09:11.95)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

AE (09:36.141)
Yeah. And people don't understand like the just the little even having a mentor, those little things matter. So I would say I had a aunt who was an attorney and I and I vividly remember when I was younger, she my aunt was the attorney for my church slash school. And we used to have like small claims, like people who didn't pay the tuition and stuff like that. And she would take me down to downtown Brooklyn at that Brooklyn courthouse to the small claims court and have me fill out

forms. I don't remember what document it was, but it was legal documents. And she had me do it in pencil and she had me fill it out and I would mess up and she would she would have me erase it, do it over. Or she will throw out the paper, bring them bring in another document, do it over, do it. It was frustrating as hell. But I didn't appreciate it until later because it taught me how much that stuff matters in the legal field. You have to be that meticulous when you're filing court documents. I do that in my practice

Tonee Earle (10:06.559)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (10:14.814)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (10:20.472)
Mm. Mm.

Tonee Earle (10:26.452)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.

AE (10:34.168)
Today, I'm reviewing every single line to make sure this is filled out correctly. Let me do that over. Let me start that because and she and I didn't know that what she was teaching me at that time. So little moments like that matters to young high schoolers, college, law students, just that tidbit can set you up so well for the future. And as compared to people who are like, I just want to be a lawyer. The only p lawyer I've seen is on TV.

Tonee Earle (10:35.053)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (10:39.454)
Right. Right.

Tonee Earle (10:47.799)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tonee Earle (11:03.232)
Right. Right. No, and that makes sense. And and it's amazing that you you had the opportunity to have someone close to you prepare you in that way. Cause I do think that's kind of the missing piece for a lot of first gen lawyers is you don't have that kind of hands on experience where you can kind of know, okay, this is how I have to prepare for what it is I'm about to go into. I I think I had like subliminal

AE (11:03.242)
Now let me figure out how to do that. That's that's very difficult.

AE (11:18.925)
Mm-hmm.

AE (11:27.107)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (11:31.283)
mim like messages of like how to be a lawyer because my mom was a paralegal for a judge. and sometimes like I will go to work with her. And my and actually I would go to school with my mom while she was getting her associates. So I I don't remember anything. Like I could I can't I I have very like, you know, just small little tokens of memories of of being that age. But I think subliminally like that entered my mind and and seeing my mom work and and

AE (11:36.174)
Mm-hmm.

AE (11:40.269)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

AE (11:48.16)
Yeah yeah yeah.

Yeah.

Tonee Earle (12:00.556)
get to where she wanted to be, kind of one gave me the passion for be being in this field, but also prepared me to like know that like, okay, I am thirty steps behind everyone else. So I do have to be mindful of like how I show up in the work that I do. Does that make sense?

AE (12:00.78)
Yeah.

AE (12:15.363)
Mm-hmm.

AE (12:19.746)
Yeah. I wonder if anything that's what our upbringing gave us. This gave us a work echo ethic. Like it just come on. Hold on one second. I should've turned I should've

Tonee Earle (12:25.589)
Yeah. Yeah.

AE (12:36.044)
These spam codes are gonna be the

Tonee Earle (12:39.17)
Put your phone in D and put your display setting on never.

Tonee Earle (12:46.612)
Yeah.

AE (12:54.67)
Yeah, can hear me?

Tonee Earle (12:55.767)
Yeah.

AE (13:00.95)
Okay. Speak.

Tonee Earle (13:04.248)
Speak.

AE (13:05.472)
Okay, you're coming through weird, hopefully it'll be fine.

AE (13:15.55)
All right. Yeah. I wonder if anything that our our bringing gave us is the work ethic. So no, we didn't have like the step by step. Cause even my aunt, I'm thinking about it now, like her path, she was a nurse before she went to law school. The the world when she went to law school was completely different. You know what I'm saying? So like, yeah, she gave me tidbits, but like in this current setting, in this current world, it was like

Tonee Earle (13:30.504)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (13:34.208)
Mm.

AE (13:42.595)
How to navigate that space is it was all new, having to figure that out. But if anything that our experiences gave us, I think it was the work ethic. We've seen people in our lives put their hands to something and never stop and accomplish a thing. Like, okay, I saw my mom go into class, I saw my mom at her job, I could do it too. I could put my hands to something and and figure it out. did you feel

Tonee Earle (13:43.757)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (13:50.069)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (14:00.427)
Yeah.

For sure.

AE (14:07.372)
Did you feel that first generation this while in law school? Did this did something happen in law school or have a feeling in law school, but it's like, hmm, I don't know if I I don't know if I know how to navigate this as well. You you did great your first semester, but

Tonee Earle (14:18.968)
if it was right. Like I I don't know if it was I did great all four years. So just put that out there. I don't I don't know if it was while I was in law school. I think it was like once I once I got done with my first fellowship out after graduating, I think I was like, man, why'd I go into like public sector nonprofit work? I was looking at like our some of our colleagues who like

AE (14:25.71)
my god.

Tonee Earle (14:48.016)
went into big law and I was like, should somebody have advised me to go to big law first and then and then go into public interest. Not to say like not to say anything's wrong with going straight into public interest, but when you see a lot of people who work for government or they they've gone through the honors program, they come from money. Like they they come from a place where like, yeah, you can afford to make to take that pay cut.

AE (14:57.901)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (15:13.356)
Because you have a trust fund or mommy and daddy are gonna cover your college bills and your and your and your student loans. but when you when you don't have any type of financial footing and your goal is, well, I wanna help people. You gotta help yourself first, bro. It's it's like flying on a plane. You gotta put your mask on before you can put on anybody else's. And I wish somebody would have told me it was it's absolutely okay to chase money when especially when you're when you're paying all of this money.

AE (15:13.71)
Mm-hmm.

AE (15:25.675)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (15:42.477)
to get the education and the licensure, it is absolutely okay to chase money, go to big law. And and and I think another part of it was, you know, being first gen, not having anybody who was close to me and looked like me at that level. It wasn't until I hit my fellowship at DCalf where I saw people who looked like me at a big firm like Rang Fox. And I'm thinking, like, what did you do to get here? Right? so I I I think it was like post it was

AE (15:56.34)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

AE (16:06.838)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (16:10.152)
Never in law school. I like I said, I did I did well in law school. The the legal education of it all came easy to me. I don't know why. I think it was probably because I got my paralegal certificate ahead of time and I was already working in the legal field. But law school itself came easy. I I naturally am a networker, so I joined organizations. I ran for class pres president, ended up being vice president. I did all of those things, did multiple, you know, internships, externships.

AE (16:28.438)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (16:38.06)
But it was like post law. It was it was the fact that like I was going to law school with no real knowing of what I wanted to do exactly. I knew I wanted to help people. I knew I wanted to serve my community. but I really didn't have a a clue of like what do I actually want to do with my license. So what about you?

AE (16:45.228)
Yeah.

AE (16:53.154)
It it it doesn't make sense for you to make less than the people you're serving. Because it is not to say like I need to be richer than anybody, but it was like if you if we both struggling, how I'm gonna pull try to help you out when I'm I I'm making less of the people I'm trying to help through my my public service that I'm struggling to. And people do it, people do it, I respect them for it, but it shouldn't be that way.

Tonee Earle (16:57.569)
Okay.

Nope. Nope.

Tonee Earle (17:11.806)
Right, right. And there was the they do. They do. It shouldn't. And there was this idea when we were in law school that okay, we were gonna serve our ten years and then our student loans will be forgiven. And now that's like up in the air and it really has it really has me feeling like, dang, I really should have went the money route. I should it has nothing to do with like

AE (17:29.944)
Yep.

Tonee Earle (17:36.429)
money being the root of evil, all the little negative things people say about money, it really has everything that to do about me putting myself, filling up my cup first so that then I can give back. I can I can give back as an alumni, right? I can I can serve other organizations that, you know, I have a heart for. I can do all those things. I can't do that now. I don't make I don't make the money to do that because I went into the public sector and I've been here for for so long. But even when you switching jobs, the the money is still

AE (17:45.347)
Yeah.

AE (17:53.623)
Mm-hmm.

AE (18:00.514)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (18:05.888)
the same, right? So that probably be the only thing, mm-hmm.

AE (18:07.138)
Yeah. Especially with yeah. No, it's real. Especially with inflation, you you you get to six figures. My whole life I thought once you once I get to six figures, we we live by by my house. You gonna be living on an island? It's the idea of six figures when you're younger just seems so huge, and then you get to twenty twenty six, you're like, I can't afford to buy a plane tick plane ticket. That's crazy.

Tonee Earle (18:29.644)
But six figures, bro, six figures for somebody who did not who does not have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans can actually take you pretty far. I do think the issue is like the bulk of our money is going back to paying for our education. And when we're paying for our education, we're real it's like spitting on fire. The interest is so motherflipping high that you're not really making any dent in in in you know the cost of the education. So

AE (18:38.688)
Yeah. Exactly.

AE (18:45.344)
Yeah.

AE (18:48.955)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

AE (18:57.848)
And that's the biggest misconception. People think that because you became a lawyer, you're now rich. There's so many different areas of law. You could work in the government, you could work in boutique firms, you could work in mid sized firms, and then big law. Like there's a there's a very sp certain sector of of of law that gives you that I'm rich money. But to your point, that comes with your time. For me, growing up I did different programs and I would visit different law firms. I obviously grow growing up in Brooklyn, I I did a program in Brooklyn.

Tonee Earle (19:19.223)
Yeah.

AE (19:26.934)
Went different firms in New York. Did a I did a a program in Delaware, went to different firms in Delaware, these big law firms in in these spaces. And you're right, I walked to these spaces, I did not see anybody like me. I saw all these white people, and it's intimidating. It's like, yo, ain't no way I'm gonna get here. It's so crazy. At every point in this process, when I would enter these spaces and I see who's in these rooms, I'm like, ain't no way I'm gonna. But I kept going anyway. It gotta

Persevere, but it's like, you know how dis you know how d discouraging it is to want this thing and every at every single point and every single progress? You're like, why ain't nobody who look at me here? Like, am I supposed to be here? Do I have the capabilities of doing this thing? And that's how I felt about big law in these different spaces, especially when you think about IP and you have to have some like biology and some deep-rooted background in these very specialized areas that you never even heard of.

Tonee Earle (19:56.938)
You have to.

AE (20:23.712)
And and you go to these interest meetings, they're like, yeah, if you sh if if you if if you majored in biochemistry, analytical farming in college, like what? I didn't even know this was a option. And all these things come with information that was passed down through your network. And if you grow up in a small city, if you grow up in the hood, if you grow up in this different cities, you don't have access to that information. So by the time you get there, they're like, you need this, this, and this. And you're like, bro, I didn't even know this existed.

Tonee Earle (20:40.344)
Right. Right.

Tonee Earle (20:52.824)
I

AE (20:52.878)
So that's the hard part. Along with just feeling like, am I am I adequate enough to even perform this type of work?

Tonee Earle (20:58.84)
Mm. I I think that's true. I also think that like the legal field is is outwardly overly complicated. Like, I think a lot of people come in thinking, I gotta go to a T14 school. I gotta get this on my LSAT. And when I tell you, black mediocrity is so much work in comparison to white mediocrity. Like, like

AE (21:07.746)
Yes. Yes.

AE (21:23.57)
Yeah, yeah.

Tonee Earle (21:28.15)
Like you can app actually be mediocre in this field as a black person and still stand out. When I tell you, go my thought was this. If I'm meant to go to law, because everybody said, be a lawyer, be a lawyer. You're gonna be a great lawyer. You're gonna be real lawyer. Everybody telling me this, right? I don't really know what I wanna do, but everybody's saying go be a lawyer with that. I'm like, bet I'm gonna take one little LSAT course. I'm gonna take the LSAT once, and I'm gonna apply to law school once. And if I get in, I get I I said I I can't.

AE (21:31.982)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

AE (21:44.234)
Mm-hmm.

AE (21:52.76)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (21:57.817)
put pressure on me like everybody else does. This, if this is for me, it has to be for me. And once I and once I get in, the floodgates just open. Like you just have this opportunity to, to obviously, you know, like you said earlier, we had that work ethic. We put the work in, but I never felt like, I have to be the best. I have to be the top of my class. I have to do. I never felt like any of that. And I and I truly, you can't, I truly do feel that

AE (22:03.084)
Yeah.

AE (22:06.774)
Mm-hmm.

AE (22:18.958)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shall make it, bruh.

Tonee Earle (22:25.694)
If you set if you have your eyes set on something, whether it's big law, public interest, you can absolutely get in that. And especially if you're a person of color, you're already used to failure. You're already used to being told no, time and time again. You have to keep getting at it. It was like I was telling you the other day, the the guy that I met at the networking event who was saying like he didn't think he could get into the honors program. And I was telling him your story. I was like, my husband applied three times.

AE (22:37.198)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (22:53.558)
This is this is y'all's problem. Y'all don't like hearing the word no. Y'all, y'all don't like hearing the word no, bro. Sometimes you gotta hear the word no. Exactly. Sometimes you I'm on a I'm on a selection c committee for Arizona's Bar Leadership Institute. And what some one of the things, it was a professor who was on the committee from I think it was ASU. And she was saying, like, some of these people, we gotta let them know that they can apply again because we're gonna need people for next year too. And and I was like, no, that's real. Some of these people gotta hear no.

AE (22:57.374)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. You think you're entitled to it? Yes. Yeah.

AE (23:19.009)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (23:23.096)
Apply again next year, right? They do. It's and it has nothing. And and s and some of the people she was saying that to were actually really great candidates. They just didn't have the experience or the time in the field yet. And my thought, yes, just keep keep at it. Like so you you're not perfect. Judges panels that will tell you they apply four, five, six times before they get appointed to be a judge. Who the hell do you think you are that you're supposed to get yes the first try every time?

AE (23:36.514)
Yeah.

AE (23:42.964)
Yes. Yeah.

AE (23:48.718)
No

Fact, you have some nerve. You got some nerve. Not as fact. The road to becoming a lawyer is paved with no's. Whether you're applying for internships, this program, this fellowship, you're gonna get a bunch of no's. And it's funny, like, even think about now, like, I have to sit down and think about the no's. Like, I'm in the position that I've worked hard for, that I've prayed for.

Tonee Earle (23:53.055)
No, keep applying. You have some the audacity, the audacity of you to think that.

Tonee Earle (24:06.571)
It is.

Tonee Earle (24:13.866)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (24:19.361)
Yeah.

AE (24:22.764)
And I'm so blessed to be where I'm at. And once you're in it, you you don't even remember it's not like you're sitting there. I'm so mad I didn't get into that internship. I'm so mad I didn't get into that externship. You're not thinking about that. You're here now. You somehow you made it. Somehow, despite the no's, you were still able to achieve the things that you got. So obviously it couldn't stop you. So don't be afraid of the no's. You should embrace them as fast as possible.

Tonee Earle (24:32.905)
Right.

Right.

Tonee Earle (24:39.468)
Right.

Tonee Earle (24:46.408)
Right. Exactly.

AE (24:52.566)
Honestly. If anything, you like your plea let's let's get these fears out of the way 'cause the faster I fall, the faster I could get back up and continue building. So yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (24:53.524)
Yeah. Truly.

Tonee Earle (25:00.864)
It's the same thinking with the bar exam that I tell all my students, you fail now, fail during practice. T learn all of your inabilities, learn all the places you lack, learn all your weaknesses now, so you can prepare for D Day when all that gotta go out the window. And and honestly, you have to apply that to to every portion of your life, even even with us getting fit and playing volleyball.

AE (25:07.182)
Mm-hmm.

AE (25:19.085)
Yeah.

AE (25:22.593)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (25:25.004)
The reality of learning, like we aren't the best yet. We aren't the best. And it's gonna be people who don't want to play with us. It's gonna be people who, you know, feel in a certain type of way when we on their team. But the reality of it is that's that's today. We got tomorrow. Tomorrow we're gonna be better. And the next day we're gonna be better and we're gonna keep coming at it. You have to have that consistency to get through failure in order to succeed. Success is failing over and over and over and over again until you finally succeed, right? Nobody succeeds on the first

AE (25:27.679)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

AE (25:38.262)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

AE (25:47.426)
Yeah.

AE (25:51.157)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's about earning respect too. I remember growing up playing football i in different parks in Brooklyn. We was like six, seven years old playing against like these 18 year olds or whatever. They weren't doing it, hey little buddy, here's here's a pass. You could throw it. They're like, you better come get this ball. They're running us over until you had to earn it. It's think about my brother.

Tonee Earle (26:12.706)
Facts, facts, facts, facts.

AE (26:18.968)
He played football growing up and he had to go through that process too until he grew into his body, got into high school. And he was knocking everybody out, running everybody until you have to respect it. I think the same thing in my career I'm feeling right now, where it's like entering into this new field, into this new space. There's a lot of moments where I feel like, dang, I'm I feel so inadequate. I feel like I shouldn't know this. I feel like I should be better at this. But I'm gonna keep showing up, keep showing up until you have to respect it.

Tonee Earle (26:23.884)
Facts, facts. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (26:41.76)
Mm.

AE (26:47.724)
Until you gotta respect the work and t and then you believe it within yourself in yourself. Now I walk into rooms, now I walk into the courtroom now that I got enough reps in of like, no, you have to respect what I say. I'm gonna I'm going to now speak with the confidence because I know what I'm talking about. I've had enough experience, you now have to respect what I'm saying. And they do. So it's not just like the other people now give you the validation. It's only until you believe it within yourself, until you know that I've read through enough cases, I've appeared in front of this judge.

Tonee Earle (26:58.09)
Hm, yeah.

Tonee Earle (27:03.445)
Right.

Tonee Earle (27:07.5)
Yeah.

AE (27:17.728)
enough times. I've spoken to the dis this defense counselor enough times. I know what I'm talking about. And you're gonna hear me and I'm going to take up space and figure it out. But that only comes with pushing through the failure. If the first time if the first time opposing counsel gets you on something, you're like, my God, this isn't for me. They made me look like a fool. I can't believe I I don't know this is for me. You you never gonna get nowhere. You gotta you gotta have some some some armor on you, bro. Like I bet. I

Tonee Earle (27:24.375)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (27:29.631)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (27:43.128)
Thanks.

AE (27:46.741)
I did look like a fool. I failed there. Bet next one. Next one. And like you said in volleyball, the amount of serves I missed, the amount of balls that hit my face, paws, like it's the worst feeling. But in 30 seconds, the next play is up. You got another opportunity to get better. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of getting through law school and and now we're practicing.

Tonee Earle (27:48.226)
Shags. Shags. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (27:57.828)
Yeah.

It is. It is.

Tonee Earle (28:05.14)
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. Yeah.

AE (28:15.008)
What are the pros and cons you would say of being a lawyer? I'm gonna have you start with a pro because I know you got a lot of cons. I'm gonna force you to be positive first.

Tonee Earle (28:16.956)
Ugh.

Tonee Earle (28:21.662)
A pro.

Tonee Earle (28:27.198)
A pro I think a pro is like outwardly people who don't really know about the secret society of a lawyer. they they respect you. They they find it prestigious that that is your that is your profession.

AE (28:35.148)
Yeah.

AE (28:39.511)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (28:46.488)
it I I'll I'll remember just like when we moved out here and I started playing volleyball and and I don't just tell I'm a lawyer, I don't do that. I had just worn my like UDC shirt to to volleyball and they were like, d did you go to law school? I was like, Yeah. Are you a lawyer? I like, Yeah. And they're like, Whoa, you just got ten times cooler. And I'm like, Really? Why?

AE (28:53.902)
Mm-hmm.

AE (29:01.964)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

AE (29:07.542)
Yeah, exactly. No, thanks.

Tonee Earle (29:10.402)
So I would say that's a pro. It's like people people who really don't know about the field, they they respect it. They they find it cool. They think of all the law and order and suits and shows and they think that's your life and like that's fun for a moment. Yeah.

AE (29:19.15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

For that moment, I do I do find it the same. I do find it interesting when when I when I get that reaction from people, it's weird that you I find it weird like really you think it's that, but but going through law school, we had that same feeling, it was the top of the mountain. That esquire was the thing. You felt what they felt at a time, but the moment you get it, you're like, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Isn't that crazy?

Tonee Earle (29:38.764)
Facts. Mm-hmm.

Thanks. Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (29:48.417)
Yeah. It it is and it's funny because I'm always reminded of small little moments where I would meet other lawyers and they would tell me like, don't do it. They would tell me like and I've kind of become that person now where I'm like, you sure about that?

AE (29:57.887)
Yeah. Yep.

AE (30:08.172)
Nah, I got that a lot too. I always thought that that was like the the hazing process. They they did it on purpose to see if you really want to do it. Like don't do this f for no frivolous reason. Yeah. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (30:11.966)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (30:17.95)
Yeah. Cause there are people who love it. There are people who love being lawyers who've been doing it 30, 40 years, won't leave their practice. And and I think that's amazing. I think if you find joy in what you're doing, that yeah, that that that's the goal, right? Is to do something that we find joy in doing every day. I don't, but I'm glad there are people who do.

AE (30:32.781)
Yeah.

Yeah. I think I think certain things you just don't learn until you get older. And for me, when I was a ki the young Akeem who had had dreams of becoming a lawyer didn't know what being a criminal trial attorney truly meant in high school. He just saw the the trial work. He just saw speaking in a courtroom.

Tonee Earle (30:42.412)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (30:56.191)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (31:01.335)
Right.

AE (31:02.038)
He didn't see filing the motion and the scheduling order and talking to your legal assistant and the paralegal and your super. He didn't see all that work. So I think what people I think what people recognize that why do you want to become a lawyer? It's the qual it's the qualities and the traits you get from the law that people actually like and not like the practice itself. And like you said, I think people do like certain people do love the practice of law. But I think a lot of people

Tonee Earle (31:04.447)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (31:08.65)
Mm-hmm.

AE (31:29.054)
Love the traits and the qualities that you can build, which so which leads me to my pro. My pro becoming a lawyer is because it makes you a great speaker. Specifically, a trial attorney. I take every opportunity to speak in court as a rep. So if it's a regular sentencing, if it's a regular status conference, the practice of getting up, looking the judge in the eye, relaying a message, speaking about the facts, even for something very simple and low stakes.

Tonee Earle (31:37.24)
Mm. Mm.

Tonee Earle (31:43.874)
Mm-hmm.

AE (31:59.085)
That's a rep because I truly believe I like telling stories. I like speaking. I like orating. I like convincing people of something. And that translates away past the courtroom. And I feel like the law gives you those reps continuously. So again, specifically for a trial attorney, it gives you the reps every single day. I'm in court like four times a week, some t two, three times a day.

Tonee Earle (31:59.385)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (32:21.867)
Yeah.

AE (32:26.05)
So I'm constantly speaking over and over and over and I like that, even though sometimes days it's draining as hell. I think it's a good pro because whether in the next fifteen years, if I'm practicing law or not, I could be a public speaker. I could do use that talent to make income and to impact people in different areas and not just loss of that's a pro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what's your con?

Tonee Earle (32:30.987)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (32:45.62)
Yeah. That's good. I like that pro. Yeah. only this one. one for now. There's so many cons. There's so many cons. con, con, con, con, con. I think the con some of the one one con of being a lawyer, especially if you're in civil litigation, is

AE (32:54.158)
One for now.

AE (33:12.494)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (33:14.994)
When you learn everybody petty. Everybody is petty. and you start and and you'll you you can there are two people I feel like, especially if you're doing like family law, probate law, one of the more like relational civil litigation topics of torts. you either r r really love the BS that your clients give you.

AE (33:18.702)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (33:40.385)
And you take it, you run with it, and you're like, I can I can I can razzle dazzle the court and and get the outcome I want. You're either one of those or you're one of the people where you start to get jaded at how much people lie, how much people tell you the story, the version of the story they want you to hear. And then when you tell them the truth, they tell you Chat Chi B she said X, Y, and Z, or their friend, sister, cousin, brother, mother told them X, Y, and Z. And and you just start to get real jaded because you realize this this system, this field.

AE (33:52.11)
Mm-hmm.

AE (34:00.449)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (34:09.878)
really is about who can lie the best, who can manipulate the best, who can it it's it's a very manipulative, manipulative field. And I I think that's the con because there are people in this field who will literally just be like running out of retainer.

AE (34:14.678)
Mm.

AE (34:29.366)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (34:30.602)
Only to settle. They don't have a care in their world about the fact that that might that person might have had to take out a loan to in order to get, you know, this matter solved. And and their client may have had legitimate reasons to to hire a lawyer. I as a family law attorney, I'm at the point now where I always I always start with the reality of it. You really want a stranger to tell you who gets to spend time with your kids. You really want a stranger to tell you who gets who gets which property.

AE (34:32.844)
Ha ha ha.

AE (34:54.858)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (35:00.788)
Y'all, y'all don't want to set aside your differences for a brief moment to come to a an amicable and equitable settlement agreement on your own. You really want a stranger who's got their own bias, their own judgments, their own feelings about men, their own feelings about women to come and tell you how you're supposed to support your child. If that's what you want, fine. We'll go that route. You know, it's gonna cost you. It's gonna cost you to have a stranger come up here and blow up your life.

AE (35:01.014)
Mm-hmm.

AE (35:08.29)
My God. Hmm.

AE (35:16.886)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Be petty. Yeah. Choose your pettiness. Yeah. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (35:30.464)
in ways that maybe you can't even imagine. If that's what you want, fine. Cause cause to I don't think enough attorneys do that. I don't think enough I think enough I think too many attorneys sit there and call you know, I've seen this and I've seen this before, I've seen that before, to make a client feel like they actually have a valid claim. And I just think it's horrible. I think it's horrible how many people, how many regular civilians are being taken advantage of and manipulated in this field because they don't know any better. They don't know any better. And I don't like it. I don't like it. It's a con to me. I don't like it.

AE (35:36.654)
Mm.

AE (35:46.158)
Mm.

AE (35:56.536)
Yeah.

AE (36:00.778)
Is is there somehow a deep rooted pro in that? Because it allows you to see human behavior. It allows you to see the world for what it is. It allows you to and also it allows you to see how many people are hurting, man. I think I think that's what opened my eyes. Like, yo, so many people are out here struggling and hurting, which

Allows me to see the need even more for good attorneys. No? Yeah.

Tonee Earle (36:30.814)
I think you can be a good attorney and the system is still gonna get ya. The system is still gonna get you. No matter how good of an attorney you are, you still backed up against decades of illegality in a system that's supposed to find justice. So I feel like no, I mean e even most recently in Arizona, the Supreme Court had finally kind of defined domestic violence in a way that is

helpful for mothers. And Arizona has always been, in terms of like just like the written law, mother friendly. In Arizona, if you are unwed and you have a child with somebody, that man has no rights to that baby. And there are lawyers who will sit there and say, that that's great. Upscon, run off with the king. And and if you're in a domestic violence situation, I do think that's great. I I do think there should be some protection because we all know how protection orders work and all that other stuff. But on the other, on the flip side,

AE (37:12.878)
Geez. Jeez.

AE (37:19.256)
Geez. my god.

Tonee Earle (37:29.644)
Where I know fathers who have wanted lives with their children and maybe they weren't, you know, the best partner to their to the mother of their child, but were good fathers. I I think it's horrible. And and that's a conversation that is never had. It's never had. The conversation about how fathers are treated in the legal like good fathers are treated in the legal system is just not talked about enough. And how the legal system is is solely focused on domestic violence, which I think

AE (37:44.79)
Mm.

Tonee Earle (37:55.991)
You know, it should not be ignored. Domestic violence is a huge issue. People are dying. That is a huge issue. But but it's one of those things where is there's like that that the it's the Thanos question, right? It's like when we can selectively fix one problem, right? At the at the risk of hurting many people, but we're fixing this one problem. What what's what choice do you make? For me, I do I think conversations should be had at both levels.

AE (38:01.122)
Mm-hmm.

AE (38:11.181)
Mm-hmm.

AE (38:21.614)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (38:24.822)
How do we help those who are suffering through domestic violence? But how do we ensure good fathers receive justice? Because at the end of the day, you're not just hurting the father, you're hurting child. And I think there are, I think, at least in the family law system, the whole point is supposed to be about the best interest of the child. But the reality of it is the little factors we're looking at are not defined enough to ensure that the best interest of the child is actually being adjudicated properly. So as as good of an attorney you are.

AE (38:30.285)
Mm-hmm.

AE (38:35.075)
Yeah.

AE (38:52.686)
That's real.

Tonee Earle (38:55.04)
You know, y every every side has bad facts, right? And at the end of the day, the the judge has to figure out who's more credible, who who who who they think the child won would do better under. And a lot of times they will choose the mom because because of whatever reason. But but I will say this: a pro that I do think is coming out of this. We we are seeing I am seeing at least more women acknowledge.

AE (38:58.838)
Mm-hmm.

AE (39:11.766)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (39:24.63)
The benefit of giving the father the opportunity to be a single parent. I just saw a video the other day of this woman in business class flying internationally. She said she let her husband and she let her ex win the custody battle and she living her best life. Because F them kids, bro. Let them get, let them get the best of both worlds. Let them go with their daddy. Why are you trying to hurt that man?

AE (39:28.642)
Yeah.

AE (39:39.075)
Yeah.

Go with a daddy.

Tonee Earle (39:49.377)
And and hurt yourself in the process. Again, I'm speaking of people who maybe you're who are not necessarily dealing with domestic violence because everybody, well, D V D V I I D I know D V is bad. I get that. I'm more so pe talking to people who are not dealing with that and they just wanna be petty and spiteful. Baby, let

AE (39:49.572)
Mm-hmm. Give you more work.

AE (40:03.51)
Right, 'cause you you know he you know he he a good father. You just mad because he was texting he was texting Shorty. That's the only reason why you keep his kids from him. That's crazy.

Tonee Earle (40:06.582)
You know he's a good father. You mad. And there's that that's not exactly. Exactly. That's not talked about enough. I feel like that has to be taught. Leave that man go. I love seeing the videos like the divorce effect, the single effect of seeing women instead of being petty. I think I think Jess Hilarious kind of talks about this in her in her new book, and she was talking about it on the Breakfast Club about how she was just being mad petty with her baby daddy, putting him putting him through the ringer. And it's like, girl, move on.

Go live your best life and and and do what's good for you and your child and and leave that man alone. You don't need the court system involved. You two can come to an agreement on get give him the bulk of the time, bro. Pay him a little fifty dollars a month for child support and go live your best life.

AE (40:53.442)
That too, they the child support. That's that's a big issue too. They they want the extra money. Which speaks to another fact.

Tonee Earle (40:57.6)
And half these men don't got no jobs. So so where are you getting them? You you want money they don't have, bro. You you don't want let them watch their kid and you won't have to worry about it. You do fifty fifty, you won't have to worry about child support because they gotta buy half the groceries, all that.

AE (41:01.87)
They don't wanna work. They don't wanna work. Yeah, they don't wanna work themselves.

AE (41:11.17)
They they they ain't doing the they ain't doing their knowledge, they ain't doing their math because in their minds like, if if I could find a way where I don't gotta work, I could get child support from my baby daddy who's a mechanic. I could I can figure out how to fund my lifestyle, as opposed to let me go get a good job, let me pay him the the little money, have him have full custody, and I got funds to go on my trips and live their best life. Like that's that's just a bill. You just pay that extra child support and you go live your life. Yeah, they don't see it like that.

Tonee Earle (41:33.984)
And live your best life.

Tonee Earle (41:40.063)
I they don't I need more family law lawyers to speak on that. I really do. I I we family law, probate law, maybe landlord tenant law should should be units of law that are are more amicable than it's it's it's too obvious. Why are you spending thirty thousand dollars on a divorce? And you don't even have that in savings, bro. You taking out loans, you taking out loans.

AE (41:44.055)
Yeah.

AE (41:57.718)
Mm.

Jesus.

Is he gonna file yeah? Jeez Louise. No, that's real. And that leads that leads to my con is like the system is too outdated. That's the most frustrating part. It feels like a lot of this is theater. Coming into the getting getting my big boy job in in this field is recognizing like, why do we gotta file this? Why do we gotta have this status conference?

Tonee Earle (42:15.252)
Yes, yeah. Yes, I agree.

Tonee Earle (42:27.96)
It's all arbitrary.

AE (42:30.742)
When we could have why why are we showing up to courtroom when this could be an email? We can just we could just hop on a three-way phone call with the judge and figure this out. Why do we gotta not the standing part, but it's it's a little thing like stand and then sit down and say this before I gotta say this, I gotta read this before all the the theatrics and we wonder why the court system is slow so slow. We wonder why things take so long, why the Supreme Court has to take forever to make decisions.

Tonee Earle (42:34.304)
Yeah.

AE (42:58.398)
You you wonder why thing people are able to just move and do certain things while they're waiting for a Supreme Court decision. It's just so slow. There's so much theater in this that that takes away from getting down to the nitty-gritty. And it takes away from the problem solving, which is what as lawyers we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to be problem solving. But why are we taking seven years to solve a problem?

Tonee Earle (43:13.556)
Exactly. Exac courts don't wanna

Exactly. I I feel like the the justice system does not want to acknowledge that we will have to change. They are so hopped up on their white wigs and black robes. They want so badly to be in the 1600s again. And it's like, no, we are in 2026. Our phones are computers, right? We we are at we are in a way where people are we already have smart cars. We have we have cars that don't have drivers in them.

AE (43:25.39)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

AE (43:34.754)
Yeah.

AE (43:39.63)
Mm-hmm.

AE (43:46.99)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (43:47.093)
Riding on the road, okay. We have we have so much technology, but the court system is still so outdated in trying to catch up and arguing over whether we should be in person or not. If you're not if you're not producing any evidence at a hearing, why do you need to be in court? The judge should stay home too. Let your clerk stay home and work from home. Why would they be in court and we're not exchanging any evidence?

AE (44:02.786)
Bro. Listen. Listen.

AE (44:10.648)
Bro, because that comes with count setting up calendars, setting up the courtroom. It's so much stuff. I remember when I started in civil when I was a paralegal, and there was cases that I started working on that has been going on for like seven years. Like, yeah, this attorney's not even here. This attorney's not even practicing anymore. Why? Why is this case still going? That's crazy. And that's why I always tell people like, if you're trying the law is not a get rich quick scheme.

If you're trying to sue somebody thinking that's about to be a come up, I pray you end this for the long game. I pray you understand that this is gonna take some time because this ain't no quick turnaround, let me get my money by tomorrow type thing. It takes so long. There's so much theater in this that I'm like, we could be way farther along if we just adopt certain things. Yeah, right. There was certain people at my my certain attorneys that I I worked for that didn't even want to change their filing system. Much less integrating AI.

Tonee Earle (45:09.675)
my God. The anti AI people are

AE (45:09.866)
I sp I spoke I spoke to I spoke to a lawyer about AI. She said I don't even want to hear you say that word around me. She said, I don't even want to talk about it. You think judges are gonna like wanna adopt it? It's gonna it's gonna take so so when people are but people are like, AI's gonna take everybody's jobs, including lawyer, like what when I I've seen people in comments. Yeah, I've seen people in comments like, Yeah, you're mad because they're gonna take it, you can't do your billables, they're gonna take your job. I'm like, all right, bro. It's

Tonee Earle (45:30.359)
Town.

AE (45:38.67)
AI's gonna have some time before they take my job. I I I think I don't think it's gonna be a our lifetime. The way how slow, how slow the core system moves, AI is gonna it's gonna make take a minute before AI takes our

Tonee Earle (45:42.088)
It has it it does have time. It exactly.

Tonee Earle (45:48.147)
Exactly. And there are pros and cons to AI. A lot of people don't think about, you know, indigent litigants. Then they benefit from having AI. If if if they benefit from their attorney not having to travel to court, right? Everything is is a billable. So any at any point, at any rate we can now, I think the issue is the legal system has welcomed AI and then not regulated it.

AE (45:50.861)
Yeah.

AE (45:55.223)
Yeah.

Exactly.

AE (46:01.676)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (46:12.214)
So you have people using AI to write motions, claiming they're taking three hours on these motions that really only took 15 minutes that they didn't even read. so you know, that's another story. But but yeah, no, I agree. I think I think it's outdated. I think it's theatrical. I think there are plenty of cons to the legal system. and it's one of those things where it's like, I'm a lawyer, I'm proud to be a lawyer, but being in this being in this field is not all it's cracked up to be. There there are it has work to do. It has a lot of work to do.

AE (46:12.439)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep.

AE (46:29.271)
Yeah.

AE (46:41.622)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And speaking of work to do, the way the the the way we got all this work to do is that we have to go through interviews. again, I d I've done inter interviews for internships, I've done interviews for jobs and different stuff like that. And I would love to know how how hard is the interview process being a lawyer or just being in this field? Like, what are some of the things you felt like

Tonee Earle (46:45.73)
Yeah.

AE (47:10.168)
people were looking for on these jobs, like the hiring committees, what they were looking for that that enabled you to get in the positions that you've been in in the past.

Tonee Earle (47:19.734)
Hmm. I think in terms of like hard or easy, it's always gonna be dependent on the job. there are some jobs that'll make you go through three interviews, four interviews, other jobs that they'll hire you after the you know, at the first interview. I rem no facts, red flag. I remember I went to an interview for this like estate planning firm. And mind you, like I was green as hell. Like I was just out leaving my first fellowship, having only done like a few probate cases.

AE (47:26.03)
Mm-hmm.

AE (47:33.55)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (47:48.761)
And I thought I prepared for that interview, but the lady who interviewed me was so intimidating. And I hate calling women intimidating, but I had never felt so stupid in my life because she was asking me questions that like I did not know the answer. She was literally putting the interview on me. Like she was just like, What you want? She was like, What can you do? What and and to me it was like, okay, there are gonna be some.

AE (47:51.31)
Mm.

AE (47:56.799)
Mm. Mm.

AE (48:02.794)
AE (48:07.67)
Mm.

Mm.

Tonee Earle (48:17.472)
There are gonna be some interviews you're gonna have that are just not gonna be good. They're not gonna be good. Whether it's because that place probably wouldn't have been a good fit for you anyway, or you know, you have more experience to gain before you're at a level where where you can show up to to a place that knows what it wants and in its employee and is willing to ensure that you have that. Whereas other times it really is again, you know, researching, make sure you know the about the company.

AE (48:21.026)
Right. Yeah.

AE (48:25.43)
Mm.

AE (48:40.014)
Yeah.

AE (48:44.621)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (48:46.132)
making sure I like to do a LinkedIn check of anybody who I know is going to be on the interview. I like to see if there's anything I have in common with the people. I like to see if, you know, maybe they've written any articles that I can read or books that I can read and have a little bit of knowledge on. I think a lot of I think in this day and age, a lot, especially these younger folks, they just show up wearing their best jammies and

AE (48:50.957)
Yes.

AE (48:55.278)
Mm-hmm.

AE (48:59.137)
Mm-hmm.

AE (49:11.032)
Jesus. Jeez. Guys, please. We got. I I know Gen Z and Gen Innovation Alpha has been get catching a lot of slack. I know people have been coming for y'all. And I could appreciate the fact that y'all see the world differently. Y'all cannot be showing up to interviews and pajamas. Come on, son. Come on. Everything don't gotta be a protest. Everything don't gotta be.

I just want to be myself. No, you are applying for a job. You need to make you like groceries. You like paying for you like texting on your phone? You like being on TikTok? You gotta pay. And that how you pay is how you get a job. Not everything is like, I gotta tear down this system and I gotta revolt against this. No, you cannot show up to interviews in pajamas. You stop telling your mom to hop on the interview to talk to the hiring manager. That's not okay. What are we doing here, guys?

Tonee Earle (49:48.002)
You do.

Tonee Earle (50:05.272)
It's not. It's not. It is. It is. Yeah. Yeah. And do do a mock interview. Like one thing I I I'll see is like you can tell this is the first time this person has had a conversation about this job and they're very nervous. I had I've had a a I don't even know. I think they were an LP. They were interviewing for an internship, and they openly admitted that they were.

AE (50:07.274)
And this is out of love. This is unacceptable, man. Come on. Iron your shirt. Put on a tie. Put on a jacket.

AE (50:24.489)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (50:34.936)
Practicing law without a law license. And I'm like, okay. Like, have have the conversation. This is where mentors can be really helpful because I like doing mock interviews. You and I will sit there and we'll we'll give our oral arguments to each other and we'll present to each other. We'll do all of that because you know, we want we don't want the first time we're presenting to be in front of that people. The nerves are already there. I don't need to be.

AE (50:39.532)
My God.

Jeez.

AE (50:48.376)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (51:04.832)
struggling through my presentation. So, you know, doing mock interviews, especially if you're still in law school, your administration hopefully has a career and development organization or department that will sit there and do mock interviews with you where where they can kind of guess what type of questions you'll be asked and kind of help you with your answers. Cause being being able to interview is a skill.

AE (51:07.352)
Mm-hmm.

AE (51:16.739)
Yep.

Tonee Earle (51:30.762)
It really is a skill. It it can be developed over time. Some people are just naturally good at it. But if you are good at interviewing, you can obviously go far.

AE (51:38.883)
Yeah, a hundred percent. And the the port you made about LinkedIn is is so good. The job that I currently have, that's what I did. Before I even before my interview, I just went on LinkedIn. I'm like, I need to talk to somebody who works here. I don't care what division you win, somebody who works here. So I looked I went on LinkedIn and found the chief of some like random division, right? So I contacted her. We had a whole hour-long phone call. Dope person, dope colour. I'm like, this is cool, man. Like hopefully I get to work with you, whatever. I showed for my interview the next week.

Tonee Earle (51:44.92)
Mm-hmm.

AE (52:08.418)
Guess who's on that interview call? Guess who's interviewing me? The person who I just talked to last week. I said, we Gucci. I felt confidence shot through the roof, comfortability, Gucci, chilling. Whole time. Now I have a familiar face. Her eyes lit up. She's not able to tell the rest of the hiring committee. yeah, but I had no clue she was going to be on the hiring committee. That that goes such a long way to do your due diligence before the interview.

Tonee Earle (52:10.28)
Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (52:24.232)
Yes, yeah.

Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Tonee Earle (52:37.728)
Mm-hmm.

AE (52:37.952)
And to my last point about confidence, the fellowship I got right out of law school, my interview was in a conference room with three attorneys on each side of the a big conference room table, six people, and then the seventh person, like the chief of the division, was at the top of the table. That's intimidating as hell. And now they're just throwing questions at you, they're staring at you, the lights is mad, bright. You sit them on this big big table at one end, and you have to feel their questions. And I I I think two things.

Confidence, man. You look them in the eye. Even if you feel like everything that's coming out your mouth don't make sense, that's a figure to you make it moment. You just talk. You better harness the gift of gab from the gab gods in that moment and just speak to their just speak to them with confidence and speak thoroughly. And also take your time. One one thing I did in that interview, I paused. I don't care. You have to be comfortable with silence sometimes.

Tonee Earle (53:06.763)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (53:12.066)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tonee Earle (53:19.16)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (53:27.115)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

AE (53:34.113)
in interviews because if you try try rush, you may say something you may I I don't think this is wrong answers, but you may stumble or fumble or you keep saying and to fill the silence. Silence is way better than ums and ahs because it tells the interviewer that you you're thoughtful. I'm going to think before I speak. So even in that interview they would ask me a question I'll sit there be like hmm or even say that's a good question. And then you sit there

Tonee Earle (53:45.65)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Tonee Earle (53:53.77)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (54:01.93)
Yeah. I say that all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

AE (54:04.202)
Yeah, yeah. That's a that's a trick. Yeah. That's a good question. And you sit there in silence and then you think and then you answer. I feel like that shows the interview so the interviewer so much. Even if your answer isn't amazing, they're probably still stuck on the fact that dang, this guy just took his time to answer this question, and I could appreciate that. So confidence and take your time.

Tonee Earle (54:09.94)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (54:17.045)
Right.

Tonee Earle (54:21.364)
Exactly. Yeah.

And then and then the art of like the post-interview kind of items, like follow up with the email. Thank you for your time, put a little antidote that you guys talked about. look forward to hearing from you soon. All of those things are very helpful in helping you secure the job. And and ultimately make sure you want the job. You're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. Come prepared with questions. If if you don't know what to ask, we have we are in the world of AI, we use Chat GPT. What what are some questions?

AE (54:29.889)
Mm-hmm.

AE (54:34.466)
Mm-hmm.

AE (54:41.262)
Mm.

AE (54:46.574)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (54:56.424)
I should be asked in order to feel the most comfortable if I'm offered the job. Let them know your concerns. Are you concerned about the pay scale? Like is there is there wiggle room? Are you concerned about the training? Does the job application tell you enough about what the training process is going to look like? Are you concerned about how is there work from home? How are KPIs measured? Like all of that stuff is going to be really important. So so interviewing, you know, it's a very short part of getting the job because once you're in the job, now you work the job.

AE (55:04.694)
Mm-hmm.

AE (55:11.487)
Is they work from home?

AE (55:23.49)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (55:26.38)
But I think interviewing is in the bet is the is the first place where you can ensure not only are you a good candidate for the job, but the job is a good job for you. And you're not gonna be leaving in six months because you didn't ask all the right questions. And even I love when employers say, like, well, yeah, you can speak with a few of our current employees about their experience. I love when employees are on the interview because that's opportunity for read for me to really ask, what how are you enjoying this job?

AE (55:26.53)
Yeah.

AE (55:35.692)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Right.

AE (55:48.142)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (55:54.689)
What are the benefits you get from this job? What are some of the I asked, what are the pros and cons of the current position you're in? Right. Like I like asking those questions because it's important to know.

AE (56:00.919)
Mm-hmm. Let them tell the truth. Yeah. Yeah. And I always tell people, I I think this happens further along your career because I feel like I'm still trying to figure this out. When you're coming out of law school, you don't have as much like leeway to like demand certain things. But as I get more years in this profession, I'm recognizing it's not so much the subject matter of the job, but what the lifestyle that this job can provide me. When you start to value your time.

Tonee Earle (56:16.747)
Right.

Tonee Earle (56:25.588)
Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

AE (56:29.24)
You're like, I need a job that also values my time. I need a job that a lot that's not draining and soul sucking. I don't care if this is real estate. I don't care if this is IP. I don't care if this is family law. Does this job fit the lifestyle that I want to live? Does this job help regulate my nervous system or throws it off the trade tracks and make me go crazy? So I know and I know people go into law school say, I need to be this type of lawyer.

Tonee Earle (56:32.448)
Yeah.

Tonee Earle (56:36.691)
Right. Right.

Tonee Earle (56:45.406)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (56:50.62)
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

Tonee Earle (56:58.245)
Right.

AE (56:58.764)
I need to be this field. But if you get there and you're like, and you know you value working from home or you value time with your children, you value and you want to go into big law and you want to go to the no matter how much you love this space, it's it's in direct opposition to how you want to live your life, and you're not gonna be happy. How do you navigate that? Like I feel like as you get as we get older, is is now deciding how can this job benefit me? And and it's not just like only me.

Tonee Earle (57:17.576)
Right. Exactly.

AE (57:28.298)
If if I recognize that this job cannot help my lifestyle, I'm better able to perform on this job because I have the time and the bandwidth and the energy to perform well. And that all matters and I yeah. Yeah. I'm saying that that all matters and that just comes with time. When it just comes with time.

Tonee Earle (57:35.669)
Yeah.

Exactly. And No, go ahead.

Tonee Earle (57:45.589)
Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I the last thing I'll say is don't let these baby boomers and these older generations have get you fooled. I saw Oprah the other day talking about it's no such thing as work life balance. Ma'am, you're wrong. You're wrong. In a day like today, you absolutely need work life balance. You absolut there's no reason why you should be giving twelve hours of your day to a job and then nothing.

AE (57:56.833)
Mm. Mm.

Tonee Earle (58:08.896)
To yourself. We are in 2026. The idea that women have to wait years into their career before they can have a child. I I used to be jealous. I used to be jealous of come people coming in the fellowship after me and they're getting pregnant. Cause I'm like, how you doing that? How how dare you? How you c how you coming into this job and feel you have the ability to start your little family now? Okay.

AE (58:09.366)
Yeah. Yeah.

Come on, yeah.

AE (58:25.14)
Haha.

AE (58:32.654)
To just Yeah. Well what they be saying, it's like like you you you be wondering how your coworker is is supporting five children on the same salary

Tonee Earle (58:42.134)
Wondering. I'm and but they're doing it. They're doing it. And and and to me it's like none of them, none of them hurt their careers, none of them felt feel like they fell behind. That they they about to be, you know, in their forties living their best life, getting ready to be empty nesters where we're gonna be probably having a five year old at that time. And that's what that's what I mean in the gym. But don't

AE (58:44.822)
Yeah.

AE (58:49.527)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

AE (58:57.39)
Mm-hmm.

Listen man. Talking about the gym. That's why we're in the gym. That's why we're in the gym.

Tonee Earle (59:05.1)
Don't let these older folks fool you into thinking that you have to be a slave to your career. You you no longer have to do that. And there are jobs out there. And I think the more, you know, millennials and younger generations stick together about demanding, you know, proper pay, proper health care, adequate benefits, y there are three hundred and sixty five days in the year. There's no reason why I should only have eighteen days of PTO. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. so yeah.

AE (59:09.57)
Mm-hmm.

AE (59:18.563)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

AE (59:27.734)
Come on, so come on yo.

Yeah, that's real. Yeah, we we with yellow on that one generation, Alpha and Z and LMLP. Like we we we we on the front lines of that one. Yeah. Yeah.

Tonee Earle (59:33.546)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Especially because other countries are doing it. Like like America's supposed to be the blueprint, America's supposed to come first, America's supposed to be the best. And yet in all things when it comes to career, we suffer. We we are far behind. So I think we have to call the bluff on our current administration and these corporations that use us. They they they use us because we could be out there starting our own businesses and doing and and doing what we love. It would be a lot of work for sure. but but we would get away with a lot more. And so if you're gonna dedicate your time.

AE (59:54.83)
Mm-hmm.

AE (01:00:03.394)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee Earle (01:00:07.746)
to a corporation, it's really important that you get the benefit of it, for sure.

AE (01:00:12.302)
That's real. That's real. So if you want more dope episodes like this, more gems, more bar spitting, how we be doing the whole lawyer, subscribe. go on YouTube, go on TikTok, Instagram, we're there. please join the community and help us grow the channel so we could keep bringing you more great content like this. This has been another episode of The Whole Lawyer. Peace y'all.

Tonee Earle (01:00:33.772)
Yeah, sir.

Tonee Earle (01:00:37.603)
Peace out.