The Whole Lawyer Podcast

Welcome back to another episode of The Whole Lawyer. And I know I usually say we have very special guests, but whenever we got somebody from Brooklyn in the building, it's an extra, extra, very special episode. But before I introduce our next guest, please like, share, and subscribe to the podcast. We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube. When you join the community, it helps us grow and allows us to bring you more amazing guests like the one we have today.

Ayana McPherson (00:25.762)
Yeah.

We we have Ayana McPherson in the building. she's an entertainment attorney specializing in production legal matters for film and television products.

Ayana McPherson (03:48.193)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (03:52.268)
Okay.

Ayana McPherson (03:57.047)
Okay.

AE (04:06.568)
Products, projects. She is a fifth year associate at Bruns Bruns, Brennan, Barry, Pul Cullen, and Jacobs LLP. Got some names on here. Got some names on here. in New York City, gang gang, where she serves as a production counsel on a wide range of feature films, documentaries, television series, and comedy shows for production companies.

Ayana McPherson (04:08.621)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (04:19.486)
Almost, almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AE (04:36.24)
And studios including Paramount, Showtime, Sony Pictures, HBO, Netflix, Disney, Amazon, Hulu, Peak. Listen, man, all the big ones. NBC, ABC, A24, Neon, Counterpart Studios, Fifth Season, and more. Before becoming an attorney, Ayana worked in talent representation at Clear Talent Group, gaining firsthand experience working with performers and creatives across television, film.

Broadway award shows, music videos, and national commercials. As a former professional dancer, she brings a unique perspective to her work at the intersection of law, entertainment, and the creative community. Ayana earned her BFA in dance with highest honors from the University of Michigan with a minor in writing and her JD from Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law, where she was a member of the Moot Court Honor Society.

And an advanced student in the filmmakers legal clinic. She has been recognized by best lawyers once to watch in America from 2024 to 2026 and received the Alumni of the Year Award in 2025 from Cardozo School of Law, Black Law Student Association. And like I said, she's from the birthplace of Biggie, the New York Knicks champion, New York City.

Ayana McPherson (05:58.359)
Yeah.

AE (06:00.166)
Berkeley, New York, please welcome Ayanna McPherson to the podcast. Everybody, welcome.

Ayana McPherson (06:06.126)
Thank you. Happy to be here.

AE (06:08.168)
So glad to have you on. The the opening question for the whole lawyer is if I was not an attorney, I would be a what?

Ayana McPherson (06:20.674)
Think I would probably be an executive, like an entertainment executive or a producer, maybe a creative director, like somebody more on the business side of things for sure. Mm-hmm.

AE (06:31.708)
More business. I got you, got you. I I thought you were gonna say a dancer. I thought you would have g went back to to dance it.

Ayana McPherson (06:37.108)
No, my knees. My knees actually made that decision for me. Yeah. Listen, we're gonna you're gonna get money from your brain, not from doing all this dance, because yeah, I mean over the time it wears on the body for sure, but yeah, I probably do something like some kind of creative business exact of of sorts.

AE (06:41.64)
It shows your path. It was there's no option no more.

AE (06:47.802)
Mm.

AE (06:53.32)
That's real.

AE (06:58.62)
Got you. That's dope. All right, so cool. So tell tell the people a little bit about what you do right now. Working with all these big major production companies. What do you do as an attorney in this space?

Ayana McPherson (07:07.084)
Yeah. So I'm a production attorney. I mainly do transactional law. I do not do litigation. So I think that's one of the first big distinctions that I would make is that I specialize in dr you know, drafting contracts, negotiating deals, all those kind of things that a transactional attorney does. That's a little bit more of a better picture of what I do. I mainly do it for production companies.

AE (07:18.898)
Mm-hmm.

AE (07:30.695)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (07:33.13)
So all these production companies that we represent at my firm, you know, they kind of partner with some of the bigger networks and studios that you mentioned. and yeah, we bring projects from script to screen. So yeah.

AE (07:33.576)
Mm.

AE (07:46.052)
Yeah. And so you say more transactional. So are you mainly is it out of reading and writing? Are you at your computer a lot? Are you on your feet a lot? Like what what is what does your day to day look like?

Ayana McPherson (07:49.389)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (07:56.639)
Yeah. I would always say a transactional attorney is a professional reader and writer. That's it. That's all we do. We read and we write all day long, you know. So it's definitely a bunch of emails, a bunch of contract drafting, a bunch of reviewing contracts and licenses. you know, going back, negotiating with the other side. You know, when I say the other side, I mean it's usually a talent lawyer or, you know, an agency rep of some sort. and then, you know, our partners are usually the network, so we're

AE (08:03.344)
Yeah.

AE (08:13.703)
Mm.

AE (08:20.594)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (08:25.644)
gaining clarity on, you know, contract provisions from them or regulations from them or any type of like network specific policies. But overall it is sitting in a chair. I do not stand much. I I sit in a chair on the laptop, reading and writing all day. Yes. Yeah.

AE (08:38.276)
No fate. Yeah.

AE (08:46.108)
That's real. Is it is it ever intimidating working with these big corporations, Paramount, ABC, A two four? Does it ever feel overwhelming or like a moment of like, my god, I'm really working with these the big dogs in this space?

Ayana McPherson (08:58.828)
Yeah. I mean, no, it it doesn't feel overwhelming 'cause there are people behind all of these companies, that are, you know, their lawyers, some of them are, you know, as young. When I say young, I don't mean in actual years, but I mean young in in legal years, as young as, you know, two and three years in, and then there's folks in there who've been in there for fifty years and, you know, they kinda grew with the company and, you know, some of those policies which I always enjoy talking to people who've been

AE (09:04.71)
Mm.

AE (09:15.952)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (09:26.25)
at some of these bigger companies and studios for years because they kinda are like a walking like history bank, you know? They've grown with the company. They know why they put this provision in, you know, they they'll probably give you a story about a time when it went really bad and why they have now this here. And like, you know, it kind of

AE (09:34.723)
Mm-hmm.

AE (09:43.698)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (09:47.459)
opens up the the knowledge bank or not just saying like, this is the agreement and it's just like this. This is what we have to do. But it'll give you the why an a lot of times behind, you know, what you're what you're having to negotiate with the other side. So yeah, it's been it's it's interesting, I would say, you know, to think that you work with these big companies, but by and large I just think to myself, you know, I'm talking to Jen or Stephanie or

AE (10:00.061)
Yeah.

AE (10:16.136)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (10:16.398)
Or you know, like I don't usually equate it to like I'm talking to HBO. Like you know you know, HBO's a company, but there are definitely people behind every single deal.

AE (10:21.812)
Right right right. Right. Right. Yeah. And after a while I like, you gotta lock it, like, I got a job to do. Like I can't just be yeah, ha have that sit on sit on me and feel like it's too overwhelming in that aspect. So ha was the plan always to become a a production lawyer, entertainment lawyer in this space.

Ayana McPherson (10:31.491)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (10:44.768)
No, no, not at all. so I went to LaGuardia High School. Shout out to LaGuardia, class of 2012. I always thought about being a lawyer representing my friends. You know, a lot of my friends are performers, actors, you know, singers, dancers, like the spans of the gamut. LaGuardia is one of those schools. Even tech majors, we had tech majors, people learning all types of, you know.

AE (11:09.233)
Mm-hmm.

AE (11:13.241)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (11:13.432)
things that happened backstage and just amazing, amazing people, even artists. And I always thought to the extent that I would become a lawyer, I would represent my friends. Like that's kinda how I saw it going. And clearly that's not what's happening right now in terms of the bulk of my clientele. But so I do represent some of my friends who are writers, and producers and directors. So yeah.

AE (11:23.92)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

AE (11:32.924)
Fire.

That's really dope. How to speak of LaGuordia, h how was it growing up in Brooklyn and how do you feel like that shaped your identity in this in this space?

Ayana McPherson (11:45.773)
Yeah. LaGuardia, I always look back on it and I think those were some of the best years of my life, honestly. college too, college was great. but LaGuardia, I remember very distinctly the first two years there, we did not get to perform. It was a training school. Miss Methesius, who we love and is still there.

AE (11:58.44)
Mm-hmm.

AE (12:08.312)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (12:12.788)
She was over the dance department and she was like, You guys are gonna train. You know, you're really the best in New York City and you're going to continue to hone in on those skills. So I think it really taught me a lot about how important training is. Like the time where you kinda just gotta like put your head down and learn the craft instead of like, you know, winning an award every time you do something or winning

AE (12:17.328)
Mm.

AE (12:28.221)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (12:35.938)
you know, recognition and claps and the perform all the time. It's like, no, there is a time frame where you really have to just like lock in and learn whatever it is that you need to learn. and be corrected. Cause you know, as a dancer, it's constant correction. You're just in the you're in the class hoping for a correction. Like hoping that the teacher's like, no, you know, don't do it this way or do it that way. Like that's, you know, wanting that constant feedback is something that I think also came out of that time. But I learned a lot of discipline.

AE (12:53.464)
Yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (13:05.976)
really lock in and just kind of like get done what I needed to get done. And with dance, you know, it's different than learning. It's different than just like reading a book and learning something, right? You're actually changing the anatomy of your body to be able to do a thing. So you have to actually practice and rehearse. And you know, it takes years sometimes to to get the facility to be able to do what it is that you wanted to do. So I think dance has been really instrumental in me learning how to

persevere, how to stay with something, how to really just train for a while. and I think every dance environment that I've been in, it wasn't based on building just a good dancer. It was built on building a good human. You know, we really they wanted us to be good people in the world. And I I always I always think about that and I always respect that.

AE (13:35.399)
Yeah.

AE (13:48.349)
Hmm.

AE (13:55.485)
That's fire. So from LaGordia you go to college, was then still on your mind? Was that still the goal at that time?

Ayana McPherson (14:03.402)
Yeah, yeah. I was a dance major in college too. at University of Michigan. Yeah. And then I was a writing

AE (14:06.514)
Fire.

Is that a thing? I I feel like you should let the audience know. Like is that is dance major an actual thing? I feel like I don't know a of people who actually do dance, so people don't feel like you can major in dance in college, but you absolutely can major in dance. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (14:15.126)
Yes.

Ayana McPherson (14:19.028)
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean my degree is I don't just have a bachelor's, I have a bachelor's in fine arts and dance. So, you know, there's some people who have that degree in theater and some people who are musicians, you know, when you think of like the New York Philharmonic, those are trained, you know, professional violinists and oboe players and saxophonists, you know, like people really study the arts at a high level. And that is what, you know, I endeavored to do and and did.

AE (14:24.36)
Mm, yeah, fine.

AE (14:29.64)
Mm-hmm.

AE (14:36.069)
No.

Mm-hmm.

AE (14:43.889)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (14:47.346)
between LaGuardia and University of Michigan. So shout out to University of Michigan too. That was that was a great time and we learned a lot there. And yeah, you really can major in whatever it is that you want. And my mom really encouraged me to major in what I'm good at. And dance is what I was really, really, really good at. So yeah, that's what I did and turned out fine.

AE (14:52.698)
Yeah.

AE (15:08.676)
Yeah.

Right. How was that transition from New York to Michigan? Or was it a transition at all? Did you did you feel like it was a culture shock?

Ayana McPherson (15:17.462)
Yeah.

Yeah, like I got up there I got up there and I remember I was on a bus, the blue bus, coming down from North Campus and I saw a deer which was running on the highway. I called my grandmother immediately. I was like, Grandma I'm

AE (15:28.038)
Mm.

AE (15:36.712)
They got gone over here. They got wildlife.

Ayana McPherson (15:39.085)
What's going on? And why didn't anybody tell me this is where I was coming? I was like, absolutely not. Please put me on State Street. That's the main street that runs through campus. I was like, put me on the main street with the cars, the noise, the band, like make it make it Flatbush Avenue is what I was really wanting. Like, I'm not going on off campus with the deer. Absolutely not. No. No. No, it definitely was culture shock.

AE (15:44.998)
Right.

Yeah, yeah.

The lights. Right right. I didn't see outside.

Nah man, facts. That's real. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (16:07.478)
You know, racially too, the the makeup was different. Black people at Michigan were four percent. So that means one in every class. You know, I was the only black graduating dance major in the class of twenty sixteen. So right. So the only in twenty sixteen. So, you know, that's ten years ago and still producing one of one. Really, I mean it's yeah, it's insane, but it it was definitely a culture shock and perspective. I think, you know,

AE (16:12.722)
Fish Man

AE (16:29.605)
Insane.

AE (16:36.315)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (16:37.24)
growing growing up in Brooklyn, I knew I was black, but like here, everybody's from somewhere else. Like and like people get real specific too. Like, I'm not just white, like I'm Albanian. Like I'm you know, my friends were from Albania and and Sicily and Italy and like Yeah, like people were very into like who they were, what their backgrounds were. and so I didn't really feel different growing up in Brooklyn because everybody was different. But when I got to Michigan

AE (16:41.061)
Yeah.

AE (16:50.266)
Yeah. I'm German, yeah, yeah.

AE (17:05.316)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (17:07.266)
you know, I was in class with people who had never been in class with a black person before. I remember in my writing minor somebody said, you speak so well. It's really interesting to me. I was like, Well, we're all at the University of Michigan. I would presume I Yeah, I would presume I speak well. Yeah, this is strange. I you know. yeah, I've had some I have really interesting moments there. I remember one time we were waiting

AE (17:20.582)
Right. I would hope you all speak. Why are you startled? Why are you so shocked?

Ayana McPherson (17:34.923)
online to get pizza and this guy he like skipped the line and he was like, Hey, I don't have to wait. I have white privilege. And I like I had never he said those words. Like I I had never had an encounter like that. You know, I had never experienced anything like that. So it was definitely a culture shock. For sure. For sure.

AE (17:43.229)
he should have said.

AE (17:56.349)
The overtness of it, yeah. When it when it when it came to dance, was the style of teaching different? Learning from I'm assuming like the professor the the dance teacher was was white, in terms of like the type of dances you were learning, was the styles different? Was was the what's what I'm looking for? Like the theology around dancing different?

Ayana McPherson (18:13.792)
Mm-hmm. Not necessarily. I mean, some of my teachers were white, some some of them one of them was black. But, you know, dance is kinda like universal. You know, it was it was it was dance. Like they brought in you know, other companies and we had exposure to to a lot there. So, I wouldn't say that the styles were different. You know, we did ballet, we did modern, just like my training here in New York. We did

AE (18:21.35)
Yeah, yeah.

AE (18:25.872)
Mm.

AE (18:37.766)
Mm.

Mm.

Ayana McPherson (18:42.206)
African which a lot of my African dance training here in New York was from a very specific part of Africa. But when I got to Michigan I learned Congolese dance, which I thought was really interesting 'cause that's just something I didn't get to learn here. So yeah, I mean it was it was varied for sure. In the same way it was here though.

AE (18:55.314)
Hmm. Yeah.

AE (19:04.326)
Gotcha. Fire. So you're at the University of Michigan. What at what point did your dance dreams transform into lawyer dreams?

Ayana McPherson (19:13.442)
Yeah, they didn't. They didn't at Michigan. That's not where it happened. what happened at Michigan is I every summer we would do like some sort of dance intensive. So the one summer in particular that I started to kind of pivot to the business side is when I did the Broadway Dance Center Summer Professional Semester. And that was back here in New York. So I I joined that program and at the end, like toward the end of the program, they would have these mock auditions.

AE (19:15.752)
Okay.

AE (19:36.433)
Okay.

Ayana McPherson (19:43.147)
And so a a talent agent would come, a major choreographer would come. We had I think we had Rhaps City at the time. And you know, they would teach a combination and then they would do cuts. And so they were trying to give you a little bit of like the real world, like audition scene to see if you could kinda hang and, you know, like you might actually get an opportunity to work with this choreographer if you were really good. That was the first time I saw a dance agent.

AE (20:03.976)
Mm-hmm.

AE (20:08.775)
Nice.

Ayana McPherson (20:10.624)
And I was like, hmm, what do they do? And so I started looking things up. I found the agency and I was like, you know what? I wanna see if maybe I can do a like a summer with them instead of dancing, like see what it would be like on the business side. And at the time I think I was a junior or a sophomore, about to be a junior, and I applied. I didn't get the internship. They had already picked the person.

AE (20:11.346)
Mm.

AE (20:25.03)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (20:37.582)
and I was like, Okay, well what what time of year? I remember saying this too, like what time of year do you guys start looking? And they said January. I marked my calendar and I would like follow them on Instagram, see what you know, see what they were doing with the auditions, like just kinda try to keep up with it. And January first I sent my information over and I was like, Hey, remember me, like

You know, I was just very on it in terms of I really you know, I was really curious. Like I wanted to know more about what they do and how they're integrated. And then I went through the interview process and they picked me and I interned there for a summer. And then that was the summer before we graduated and I was just kinda like, I really like this.

AE (21:04.859)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (21:20.396)
We basically were picking the dancers, throughout the state of New York, but some neighboring states too would come and audition. But we picked the dancers to be on our roster and then those people would you know, be a part of the agency. So they could go to the closed audition only for that agency for the music videos and the VMAs and the B E T awards and the Macy's back to school commercial, like all the things that require dance in addition to Broadway. So

AE (21:28.784)
Yeah.

AE (21:39.12)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (21:48.739)
You know, we really got to kind of hone in on the on the talent in New York. And at that time I was like very into, you know, obviously the dance department 'cause I was a dancer, so that was that. And then right right before graduation, one of the agents called me and he was like, Hey, like you did a really good job last summer.

AE (21:58.822)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (22:10.998)
Are you looking for a job? Like, do you want work here? And I was like, What? Yes. What do you mean? What do you mean? Do I want to work there? Absolutely. and so they never had a dance assistant. They only had like the main office assistant who kind of like assisted in the film and TV and like the adults. And so they created a position for me as the dance assistant. And that's where I started. And I I left Michigan. I came back home. I worked at the talent agency.

AE (22:14.896)
Yeah, right. Of course, yeah, yeah.

AE (22:29.616)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (22:40.686)
probably for a year before I started studying for the LSAT. So that kinda the agency world is kind of what led me into the the legal world in a more real way.

AE (22:52.476)
Got you. You said you said a couple of really dope things. First, what when you went to that first audition, what did you see the agent do? Like what what were they doing that made you that caught your eye? Like what were they were they like walking around? Were like were they setting up the dances? Like what were they doing that made you go, What what do they like? I wanna see what job that is.

Ayana McPherson (23:10.028)
Mm-hmm. They were picking. So at that point, I didn't know that they were low-key auditioning us for the agency as well. Like I thought we were just dancing for the choreographer to see, you know, if we could build relationships and they can kind of just do a mock. But what was really happening is the agent was coming to see if there were people who they wanted to add to their roster because we were in the summer professional semester. So these are also dancers from all over the world who are also professionals and

AE (23:13.36)
Mm.

AE (23:25.074)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (23:37.517)
you know, probably ready to get signed too. So yeah, I was like, wait, so you're the one basically dictating who's gonna be signed by your agency and ultimately who's gonna dance behind Beyonce and who's dancing behind like you're picking all these people who are gonna go to this like smaller audition and be amongst the best and get picked for these job these dance jobs in the industry. That's really what it was. And so I was like, well

AE (23:40.358)
Yeah.

AE (23:50.746)
Yeah. Yeah.

AE (23:56.604)
Mm-hmm.

AE (24:00.71)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (24:03.786)
I can do that. One, either all the dancers in here, I either know them or dance with them in high school, or I'm one degree away from everybody. Or what I really thought about was like, even if I don't know them, I can use my expertise in dance to be able to tell you if I think they can actually do the job. And and that is the thing for me that I was like, you know, I'm not just somebody who loves dance. I am a dancer and I can, you know, use that skill.

to pick the dancers who I think can actually do the job that they would essentially be getting booked for. So yeah. Everything was just kind of like fitting together. Like the dance helped me work at the agency. And then the agency kind of pushed me into the legal aspect because at at the agency, you know, I I represented kids. So they needed a work permit and they needed a Coogan account.

AE (24:35.484)
Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (24:52.556)
And a Coogan account had to do with Coogan Law, which was basically you take 15% of their earnings from whatever job they do and it goes into a block trust account. And in that block trust account, that like that was set up so that you know the like the kids' parents or whoever couldn't just like take all their money and spend it. Yeah. So, you know, child labor laws were coming into effect. And then the unions like SAGAFTRA and Actors Equity, those were the two unions that kind of govern the people that I was representing at the time. So

AE (25:08.697)
Yeah.

AE (25:12.156)
Right.

Ayana McPherson (25:22.05)
You know, I just kinda started crossing with like these contracts and the child labor laws and, you know, I was just like, like, yeah, this kinda makes sense. Probably go home and study for LSA after work.

AE (25:30.707)
That's fire. Yeah, I never I never I know the child label laws. I never heard the Kuga law. That's funny. I I never knew the name for it. That's fire. So was so you know how they did the the this hoop dreams where like the basketball player who's striving to get to the NBA, but then something clicks and like I'm not gonna make it. Let me become a coach, let me do something else. And that period is very tough because it's like, damn, I really thought I was going to the NBA. Was there something similar that happened to you with dance where you're like,

Ayana McPherson (25:51.628)
Yeah.

AE (25:58.921)
It's like a death of a dream and then you have to transition to something else.

Ayana McPherson (25:59.599)
No. No, no, no, no, no. I it it I never felt like it died because to be honest, I love dance. I will always love dance. And I think it is something that made me the type of lawyer that I am today. very sensitive to like the creative. You know, I'm very

AE (26:06.758)
Mm.

AE (26:16.818)
Man.

Ayana McPherson (26:23.67)
tapped into what it took for them to even get to this point. You know, so when we're negotiating deals, I I would like to say I'm very fair. You know, I know who I represent. And as a as an attorney, I do have to represent my client, but I can see both sides of the deal. And I think that's something that makes a well-rounded attorney. Being able to look at the situation from my perspective, obviously trying to get the best deal for my client, but also

AE (26:28.231)
Mm.

AE (26:35.312)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (26:52.834)
contracting around like what what would be a concern of, you know, talent on the other side of this, right? Like, okay, if that is their concern, how can I make this fair enough for the both of us with still meeting, you know, my goals as a representative for my client, but also understanding that there's two sides to this coin. So I think it just helps me negotiate better and and see both sides of things. but I would never say that I think the dream died. I really

AE (26:58.448)
Mm.

AE (27:09.511)
Yeah.

AE (27:19.463)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (27:21.954)
I really just went as far as I could go at the agency and then I went to law school as a means to further my career in entertainment. You know, like there were no more jobs right at the agency when I was there. It was, you know, staying assistant until

AE (27:31.696)
Mm.

AE (27:35.483)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (27:39.087)
Like you never really know when they're gonna hire a new agent. So it wasn't a straight line path to that kind of career. so I wouldn't say it died because I feel like I kinda just took it with me. Like, you know, I took the dance into the agency and then it expanded to like TV and film and Broadway and you know, the young people's department. And then that that kind of love for just like entertainment at large, not just dance, but entertainment at large kind of just drew me to like, okay, well if I'm gonna be an attorney

AE (27:40.124)
Yeah.

AE (27:45.554)
But

AE (28:03.729)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (28:08.894)
I'm doing this as a way to get to my next level in entertainment, not necessarily like lawyer for lawyer sake. You know, like if it was criminal, I probably would have just picked another job because that's not my it's not my bread and butter. No. No. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Love the profession, but like, you know, it having it very deeply connected to my passion is the reason why I'm doing it. Like I'm not just doing it just to

AE (28:18.088)
Mm-hmm.

AE (28:21.736)
I don't wanna do that. I I don't wanna be a lawyer that bad.

AE (28:31.1)
A per.

Why by

Ayana McPherson (28:37.88)
Read all day. That's that's not fun.

AE (28:39.302)
No, I feel that. I feel that. So so speaking of that, so so you said you took the LSAT when you when you were not you had your job after college. Did you know any lawyers before this? D did somebody introduce you to to the law? Like how did how did the law like infiltrate the process?

Ayana McPherson (28:50.04)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (28:58.572)
Well my mom went to law school. she actually did not end up practicing. She ended up being an editor for the New York Law Journal. She loved to write. yeah. And my mom, she always told me, like, you know, go to school for what you're good at. You know, go to school for what you're really good at, which is what kind of led me to really taking Dan super seriously. But then she also mentioned, you know, like you could go to law school with any degree. And I was like, huh?

AE (29:01.608)
Nice.

AE (29:05.437)
Mm-hmm.

AE (29:09.5)
Fire.

AE (29:21.767)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (29:28.278)
She was like, Yeah, like take that dance degree and go to law school and I don't know, represent dancers if they need lawyers. And I was like, Ma, they don't really need lawyers, they need agents. She's like, All right, represent somebody else doing something creative. I'm like, yes, ma'am, you know. So I do think it kind of took someone seeing someone and someone saying to me, You don't need, you know, everyone says like polysi.

AE (29:28.817)
Yeah.

AE (29:38.952)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (29:51.241)
is the what you need to do in undergrad to then be a lawyer or some kind of sociology and, you know, all these things that really I don't know, I don't I I don't think they necessarily translate. Like what did you major in in college?

AE (29:52.082)
Right.

AE (30:04.952)
I I did poly side too and that didn't translate at all. I don't think I took anything from it. Maybe a a good baseline 'cause you have to take like constitutional law classes. So a good a good foundational baseline. But in terms of like being a lawyer prepare even preparing me for law school, no. I c I could have easily majored in something else. A hundred percent.

Ayana McPherson (30:06.498)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (30:13.229)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (30:22.64)
wow. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. yeah, no, she just kinda let me know I could do whatever I wanted to do. And if I wanted to go to law school, I didn't really need any like one particular background. I could start from where I was. So that was good.

AE (30:31.197)
As far.

AE (30:38.714)
Mm-hmm. Does your does your mom still work for the New York Law Journal? okay. Does she still write? Does she still use the pen sometimes? yeah. Fire. That's dope. I think that's so important. And shout out to your mom for for carving that path for you and and give you the info that you needed in those in those times. That's so important. Especially in this journey. Like like you said, a lot of people do feel like

Ayana McPherson (30:42.409)
No, she doesn't. She doesn't. She's retired.

Ayana McPherson (30:48.598)
Yeah, sometimes, sometimes. She uses it for different things now. She uses it for yeah, different things. But yeah.

AE (31:07.92)
You need to be a poli sci or philosophy major in order to go to law school. I really want to know who who started that. I don't know where that started or that how that started because I feel like more law schools need to say that, especially when they go and visit these high schools and colleges, like, hey guys, we don't care. It does not matter. If if anything, I'm sure you are more marketable because you are a dance major in a stack full of poli sci majors, they see one dance major, like, that's interesting. That's different.

Ayana McPherson (31:10.988)
Right.

Ayana McPherson (31:20.045)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (31:33.581)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (31:36.982)
Yeah, yeah.

AE (31:37.862)
So I would implore you guys and it's not and not to say it's like just to major in something different because you think it'll be more marketable. If you're legitimately interested in something else, but you also want to enter the law, don't feel like it only has to be this one track.

Ayana McPherson (31:47.565)
Yes.

Ayana McPherson (31:52.855)
Yeah. I mean actually something to think about too. Like I know some film finance lawyers and these are people who loved math. You know what I'm saying? These are people who loved math. Like when you think about your patent lawyers, these are people who love like certain types of science and you know, like some techie. Yeah. So it's like you can take whatever your passion is and you can translate it. Because I was telling somebody one of one of the students who were reaching out to me for some guidance. I was like, you know.

AE (32:00.778)
AE (32:05.832)
Yep. Some tech techie signs, IP, yeah, yeah, yeah.

AE (32:20.114)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (32:20.578)
You guys are looking at these very traditional internships. I want you to think about what you like and just know every company has a lawyer. Every company. You tell like dishwashers, Whirlpool. Whirlpool has a lawyer. Okay. Frigid air. Oase suitcases. Like everybody has a lawyer. There's there's I'm telling you, it's endless opportunity.

AE (32:40.51)
Comor

AE (32:48.242)
That's real. Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (32:49.44)
in getting a JD. It's endless opportunity. But I think people look at it like politics and, you know, litigation. And it's like, I don't know, like I was never going into court. That would probably give me a heart attack.

AE (32:59.25)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (33:06.646)
Because also it like I could watch TV and get my fix on like that, you know, but like there's just so many people aren't thinking about like the transactional side touches everything. Everything. So, you know, econ major. I mean people doing like mutual funds and it's so it's so vast. you know, landlord, tenants, lawyers like you know, it's so it's so much you could do. So

AE (33:07.112)
Yeah, I'll let you know that it's not that fun. It's not fun at all.

It's overrated. Yeah, yeah.

AE (33:19.43)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That

Mm-hmm.

That's so good. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (33:35.319)
I wouldn't limit to what your school puts out on their little web, you know, the little what's the portal? I was, I think, Simplicity or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Like I wouldn't limit myself to that. I started reaching out to people. Yeah, I started reaching out to random people on LinkedIn and found jobs that people asked me, like, how did you get that? I'm like, I was thinking one day.

AE (33:35.675)
Yeah.

AE (33:43.43)
Y yeah, sim simplicity too, yeah, we had that too. Yeah. Like a career coordinator or stuff. Yeah.

AE (33:59.535)
No. I'm glad you brought that back up because that was that was the other dope thing you said about when you're processing getting the getting your internship at the talent group. You saw something you liked, you s you you and then you were inter you said you said the word curiosity. You went to that company and said, When do you start looking? That's literally all it takes. Sometimes when people come to me and ask me, or when students whether you're in high school or college right now looking for opportunities, internships.

Ayana McPherson (34:01.754)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (34:08.876)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (34:15.309)
Yes.

AE (34:27.804)
We sometimes overanalyze it or complicate things. One is literally reaching out and being curious. That's all you did was one of y'all accepted applications. And you just do the things. You just take the steps to apply for that internship. And tying it back to what you said now about like how the law is vast. One part of that is this lack of education and lack of knowing, exposure. Cause I didn't know how much the law touched stuff until I went to law school.

Ayana McPherson (34:30.114)
Yes, yes.

Ayana McPherson (34:42.797)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (34:49.58)
Yes. Exposure. Yes.

AE (34:57.234)
Cause growing up in my mind, it was defense attorneys and prosecution. It was litigation all across the board. It there wasn't a thought outside of that. Cause I just didn't know. I didn't know how much the law touched stuff. Cause you're also getting your information from TV and TV only. Law and Order only does criminal law. I I I don't watch Law and Order like that. So there might be episodes where they might touch on other lawyers, but mainstream only touch touches on a certain type of law. So I didn't realize how vast it was until law school.

Ayana McPherson (35:00.547)
Yes.

Ayana McPherson (35:05.88)
Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (35:12.51)
Right. Right, right.

Ayana McPherson (35:21.901)
Mm-hmm.

AE (35:26.962)
But then even when that happens, now it's like, okay, now how do I get into this space? I'm gonna reach out. I gotta talk to somebody. I got and and it but it's simple. It shouldn't be so complicated to figure out, okay, what's the next step? You just expose yourself. Once once you have the information, keep going on a rabbit hole and eventually you're gonna hit somebody.

Ayana McPherson (35:33.122)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (35:42.029)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (35:46.285)
Yeah, yeah. And it can't be afraid to try, you know. Like I reached out to companies, I was like, no. Just straight up just straight up no. And it's like, okay, next, you know, like I think we tend to sit in what feels like failure or you know, frustration a little bit longer than we need to, because it's probably just redirecting you to your yes, right? Like

AE (35:49.979)
Yeah.

AE (35:57.671)
Mm-hmm.

AE (36:08.177)
Mm.

AE (36:14.023)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (36:15.074)
consider, you know, what if it does work out? You know, like in s I feel like a lot of times we sit in there like, man, it might not. It's like, but what if it does? Like, what if you just reach out to a hundred people and then you finally re hear your one yes and you're like, okay, this is the only yes I needed. You only need one. So, you know, I think sometimes it just takes that resilience, that push, that putting yourself out there, and just not being afraid to hear no, because that's that's really not

AE (36:19.048)
That

AE (36:30.242)
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (36:42.794)
It's it's not really an indicator of anything that you're lacking. Sometimes it's just redirecting you to something that w that's a better fit. Yeah.

AE (36:46.896)
So good.

AE (36:50.672)
I love that. I love that. So you take the LSAT. Did you hear any no's in that process? Did you like apply to a bunch of law schools and you heard no's and yeses? Like what?

Ayana McPherson (36:58.904)
The LSAT was a mess. Okay. I I was good at the logic games and that's about it. Like I and I can be so

AE (37:06.148)
Uh-huh. Mm. That's about that's that's a great thing to be good at. That's the hardest part of the test. Logic games is terrible.

Ayana McPherson (37:13.154)
Well, it's only one third. It's one third. I needed two thirds. I need I needed two thirds. Yeah. I need a little bit more. and I i this is so this is interesting. I

AE (37:18.672)
A little bit more. Yeah, c could it carry me over. Yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (37:27.468)
I don't think I've ever really fully shared this on any platform, but I think it's good for people to really think about. So I took the exam, I got like a generally fine score, but it wasn't anything like I thought would take me over the edge, get me a scholarship, get me to a great school, T fourteen, like very mediocre grade on that exam. I'm like, all right, I need another two. I don't

AE (37:34.727)
Mm-hmm.

AE (37:47.036)
Mm-hmm.

AE (37:51.431)
Mm-hmm.

Do you remember it at all? Do you remember the score at all? Okay, I I I actually don't either, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (37:57.039)
Wish I did. I don't because now I'm thinking about the bar exam and those numbers and I don't want to say the wrong numbers. Like I I don't, you know, I don't want anybody to like start measuring themselves up against what I said and like next thing you know, you know, but

AE (38:04.718)
Gotcha, no, I feel you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause people ask me that all the time. People like, What's your law? I'm like, I promise you it's not gonna I know it means a lot to you right now, but you're not gonna remember it later on. But I feel you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (38:17.806)
No, no, it's so unimportant. so I got this score and I was like, No, I need to do better, right? Like I'm coming from graduated Michigan with honors and like I like I don't know what this equivalent of a B minus C I don't know, like I didn't even I couldn't even tell you. I literally was like, This is not good. so I was like, Mom, can you help me? I need like a tutor, private too, like one on one help because this

needs to get to like I don't know what the top was. I wish I remembered those numbers, but let's say like out of two one eighty or something. Like I need to be right in that range within the ten ten point gap. That's what I wanted. Man, I did all that tutoring and I got the same exact score the second time I took it.

AE (38:52.4)
180 yeah, what yeah, think 180 is the highest score, something like that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (39:07.104)
I said, yeah, this is embarrassing. I want my money back. I want my money back. Like I could not believe it. And I said, not even a not one point higher.

AE (39:08.028)
Damn my money back. You gotta do refunds?

AE (39:16.56)
You mean that with a budget at a point five high that

Yeesh. That's rough.

Ayana McPherson (39:23.574)
I was sick. I was so sick. I opened those results at the at the BBQ's on 42nd Street. With the sticky wings, you know exactly what it is. You know exactly what it is. I feel so at home. I literally opened that and I just said, this is rude. I closed it.

AE (39:30.822)
The stick get the sti the sticky wigs you get the sticky wigs.

AE (39:40.392)
Let's think he was a spire.

AE (39:45.736)
How long was you studying for with the tutor?

Ayana McPherson (39:52.333)
Gotta be six months or more. Like, I was I was really like I was going to work all day, coming going to tutoring after work. Like I I was really committed to like trying to do better on the weekends. I was taking the tests, like I yeah. Now, were there indicators that I wasn't gonna do that much better? Yeah. You know what the indicators were? No, no, no. The indicators were, you know, like when you take those those time tests.

AE (40:07.996)
Bang.

He was out.

AE (40:18.962)
Practice? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (40:21.282)
The issue I kept running up against was finishing. I could not finish any allotted time, right? But I didn't think anything of it. I didn't think anything of it. I was like, man, I'm just slow. Like I don't know how to get faster. I'm just slow. Maybe just do more, right? So I'm doing all of this, whatever. I get the same exact score. I'm like, you know what? Forget it. I'm applying with this. This is what I got. This is where I'm going. Like, I got two years of work experience under my belt with a company that's directly applicable to the type of things that I want to be doing. I

AE (40:27.6)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

AE (40:49.351)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (40:49.794)
Really good undergrad scores, like, yeah, like let's let's see what we got, right? Do you know and I have a writing minor. I can write. Don't play. I can write you a paper. Okay. So I said, I'm a write this essay. I'm gonna submit this grade. I'm gonna just go with what I got and I'm gonna go with God, right? I submit everything. I got into a couple schools, I got wait listed at a couple schools, and I another

AE (40:55.335)
Yeah.

AE (40:59.197)
Mm-hmm. Do I mean right? I say, yeah, yeah.

AE (41:09.383)
Like

Ayana McPherson (41:18.818)
thing that I did. I really didn't apply to a school that did not have an entertainment program, some sort of entertainment courses and stuff. Like I knew where I was trying to go. I wasn't just like, I want to go to Harvard because no. Like I was like, who is doing entertainment? It's like five top places, right? Okay. So the one place that I was really considering going, where which I ended up going, they asked me to come down for an interview.

AE (41:29.89)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (41:45.911)
And I was like, this is either good or bad. Like I had no clue why, but they asked me to come down for an interview. And that like that's not normal, right? Like every person doesn't get an interview. Yeah. So I get there, and I wish I remembered her name right now, but honestly, she really changed my life and my perspective. Newman, I think, or Noonan. but I go into the office and she's like,

AE (41:53.392)
Right. Yeah, I'm gonna go off for that interview. Yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (42:14.434)
Hey, I wanted you to come in. I want to talk to you, just get some perspective. Cause there's just a bit of a discrepancy with, you know, everything that you submitted. And I was like, what's the discrepancy? I'm in here nervous. I'm sweating. She's like, your grades are amazing. your work experience, amazing. She was like, this LSAT score. Like, it's not, it doesn't make sense with the type of student you were in this LSAT score. Like, what happened? And I was like, I'll be honest with you, I never finished.

AE (42:39.943)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (42:43.328)
I did half and I guessed C all the way down each row for every they said time is up and I put C. You know what I'm saying? Like I took half and I guessed half. That's what I said. She looked at me and she started laughing. And she was like, You mean to tell me you never took the whole LSAT and this is the score you got? And I was like, Yes. And she was like, I think you might be a genius.

AE (42:49.714)
Sheeze Yeah.

AE (43:10.588)
He said, You're in.

Ayana McPherson (43:10.87)
I would I was like, What? She was like, No, I think you might be a genius. Like if you didn't even look at half of the questions on the whole exam and you got this score, she's like, Yeah, I would I would like to you to come in and be a student here.

AE (43:16.24)
Holy moly.

AE (43:20.784)
And you still

AE (43:26.736)
That's amazing.

Ayana McPherson (43:29.922)
That unlocked the perspective for me, two things. One, it's not always what it looks like, right? I'm glad she gave me an opportunity to speak for myself and to say what really happened. And the reason why I say there were indicators I wasn't gonna get better is because the whole time I was taking half and and guessing half. Like I just couldn't get through it. And then she said to me, she said to me, Have you ever received extra time on your exams? I said, No.

AE (43:39.728)
Mm.

AE (43:51.32)
Yeah, man.

Ayana McPherson (43:59.265)
And then she was like, you know what though? You were a dance major. And that unlocked something for me too. I'm a very visual learner. So I wasn't tested for as long as everybody else in the same way as everybody else the entire time. My tests look different. Sure, I took some, you know, tests in other courses, Anatomy and Canese Al. Yeah, sure. Were they all timed in the same way? No.

AE (44:17.521)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AE (44:22.374)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (44:25.196)
Were they all like, was I under pressure for the last eight years the way everybody else probably might have been? No, so I didn't even recognize that I might have needed extra time this entire time. And no idea. So it that was my first

AE (44:25.435)
Yeah.

AE (44:30.48)
Right. Mm-hmm.

AE (44:37.028)
Yeah. And when people talk about and when when these tests do accommodations, people try to see that as like a a negative thing. I don't need no accommodations. No, it's like it's it's gonna help you.

Ayana McPherson (44:47.924)
Accommodate me. Accommodate me. If I need the accommodation, please, please bring it here.

AE (44:55.464)
Br bring it over accommodations, please. I'll take two Yo facts. Now it's real. Yeah, man. So crazy.

Ayana McPherson (45:00.59)
I'll take 10 accommodations, please. but I had no idea. I had no idea. And as soon as she said that, I was like, you need to learn how you learn. You need to figure out how you learn. Because if you don't know how you learn, it it's not gonna change in law school.

AE (45:11.792)
Yeah.

AE (45:17.296)
And and not everybody's gonna give you a chance to explain yourself. That's amazing that she did that. Not everybody's gonna give you the chance to explain why you tested the way you did. That's crazy. Yeah. Man.

Ayana McPherson (45:21.453)
Yes.

Ayana McPherson (45:26.562)
Yes. Yes. I was so grateful for that. And that's also what made me like just finalize my decision right then and there. I was waitlisted on another school that I actually wanted to go to and I was like, forget it, I'm a just I'm going to this school. I feel like they really, you know, cared enough to ask what happened here. and I feel like they will be instrumental in me really achieving a the success that I want. So shout out to Cardozo. That's what I'm saying.

AE (45:33.712)
Mm.

AE (45:39.964)
Man.

AE (45:43.451)
Yeah.

AE (45:52.861)
Man. Shada Cardoza, man. That's amazing. Sheesh. That's amazing. So so when when you talked about timing, the the next thing I legit thought about was the bar exam because same thing when I was studying for for real. For for quite yeah, yeah. What I was thinking about was the now I'm forgetting the name, the the

Ayana McPherson (45:57.047)
Yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (46:06.424)
Ooh, one minute and forty six seconds. Ingrained. One minute forty six seconds per question.

AE (46:19.046)
where they give you a whole world of case law and you like ride a that aspect of the exam. MPT, yes. I never finished those. in the practice exams, but on the actual exam, I actually have to finish. So when you talk about time, that's the first thing I thought about. And that's important for people to know, like that's low key like the name of the game when it comes to these tests. Whether it's the L set or the bar exam, you have to just finish. Like finishing is like

Ayana McPherson (46:22.722)
Yeah. MPT.

Ayana McPherson (46:36.812)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

AE (46:46.95)
The timing matters and it's it's it's a skill on how to take the test. It's not about your knowledge or how smart you are. It's a s it's a it's a learned skill. These tests are are games that you have to learn how to play and ace it and win. It's crazy. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (46:54.529)
It's a skill.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And the timing translates to what we do, you know, billing hours and time, you know. Time is always important, for sure.

AE (47:04.496)
Mm.

Yeah. So do you have a bar exam horror story when you finally finish that cardozo? Is there any bar anything that went wrong on the bar exam that you wanna share? Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (47:16.386)
Let me tell you, the bar exam was a was also a mess. But but no, but let me tell you, the bar exam, studying for the bar exam, unlike any law school exam, because it's just black letter law. So is is like, did you memorize it? Do you know it or not? You know? all this flowery language about how the case may or may not apply. Nobody cares. They wanna know. Right. Right to the point. Right.

AE (47:27.303)
Mm-hmm.

AE (47:33.265)
Mm-hmm.

AE (47:38.893)
Nobody cares. Get to it. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (47:42.861)
The bar exam, I do have a story about that. So I did the Barbie program, like everybody says to do. I read this book called F the Bar Exam. And in that book, it was talking about, like she gave this like crazy study program. Like basically you gotta do like this amount of questions per day. Like it was a lot of questions. And at first I was like, nah, nobody could do that. Like she's she's losing her mind. But when I got to the end of it, I recognized

AE (47:49.712)
Mm-hmm.

AE (47:55.121)
Hmm.

Ayana McPherson (48:13.836)
What was behind that? And long story short, I was do I was watching the lectures, I was taking notes, I was doing the problems at the end of the thing. Like maybe like two weeks before the bar exam, where they give you that diagnostic so you could see how you match up with everybody in your state. Let me explain to you the results of that diagnostic.

AE (48:29.778)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

AE (48:37.106)
Should I take this thing? Am I good?

Ayana McPherson (48:40.707)
I was in the bottom 9%. So I two weeks before the bar exam, I was going to fail.

AE (48:44.978)
Meh

That's tough. That's to yeah, that's hard. Yeah, that's crazy.

Ayana McPherson (48:51.212)
I got on the phone with my friend and sorority sister, Jalisa, and I started crying. I I just I I was like, I can't do this. you know, I'm overwhelmed. This is too much. I don't, I don't think I'm gonna pass. And then I was getting the flashbacks from the LSAT. I was like, I've never been a good test taker. I just I I was like losing it. I was losing it. And she literally, I will never forget this, and I love her for this to this day. She literally was like,

AE (48:53.89)
Yeah.

AE (49:08.52)
Mm.

Sheesh man.

Ayana McPherson (49:20.94)
We're not doing that. She was like, Absolutely not. Take everything you just said back. You are a good test taker. You are able to do this. You are not gonna quit. Like she just started speaking life into me and I'm boo-hooing. Like she did not care. She was like, I don't wanna hear that. She used some other choice words. You know what I'm saying? Like, cut that out. Yes. She was like, We're not doing it. You you are gonna you are gonna take the night.

AE (49:34.864)
Well.

AE (49:40.808)
Sometimes you need that. Sometimes you need that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Man.

Ayana McPherson (49:50.351)
Cry if you need to go to sleep. When you wake up in the morning, it is a new day. And you are going to start over and you're gonna, you know, you're gonna figure it out. So I, of course, I cried the whole rest of the night. Man, I was watching Devon Franklin's sermon, Don't Quit. I I will never forget, I was using the tools. Listen, I was in Sarah Jake's. I could tell you, I mean, Sarah Jakes was like, she was like, you wouldn't even be up against that thing if you weren't all so big. You're big enough to stand up to the moment. I I'm telling you, I was.

AE (50:01.18)
No.

AE (50:06.118)
the ball frankly. Yeah. Everything you needed. Got the gospel songs on.

AE (50:20.04)
She'd be talking. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (50:20.12)
pouring in because I I really the self-doubt was debilitating. It was so bad. So I woke up that next day and I was like, well what I'm good at is systems. So let's do an audit. I went through like, okay, what where did you get your lowest scores? Con law. Great. It's the first thing you're gonna do. Where second lowest property, boom. Second thing you're gonna do. Okay, where'd you get your highest? Boom. Okay.

AE (50:30.588)
Yeah.

AE (50:42.141)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Ayana McPherson (50:50.06)
So what I my plan was go through the sections where I really wasn't doing well and figure out why. My whole question was why. I got these big I wish I I wish I had them in here. These big poster boards and I'll write the rules out and I put it on the wall and I will walk when I when I was done with that room, it looked like I had put up wallpaper.

AE (50:58.065)
Yeah.

Good. Hmm.

AE (51:09.81)
Mm. Yeah.

AE (51:16.016)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (51:19.122)
All over the walls. First of all, I took over my mother's office. And so, like, shout out to my mom. She did. She did. And I was not okay. I had two weeks to turn this around. I was not okay. I was in there walking around. Personal jurisdiction is blah blah blah blah. Subject manager. I was like, I was like reps. I'm putting in my reps every single day. I'm putting in these reps. And when I tell you

AE (51:30.236)
Fion faces.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (51:44.684)
You know when you when you do an exam and you and you know the answer is yes, but it's like you get down to A and B and they both yes, but the reasoning is different for both of them?

AE (51:53.757)
Multiple choice loves to do that. It's so annoying. I'm like, I'm I could put everything on love. It's on is B. You can't tell me it's not B. But the S and C. And there's what, come on, son. I hate that.

Ayana McPherson (52:00.407)
Right. Right. But but the but the the turning point is what I realized is you don't know why. You know it's yes, but you don't know why. Okay, why? And anytime I would answer it, I would I would write out my response to the multiple choice. I would say it's B because. It's A, because. And I kept because that reasoning is the determining factor of if you really know what you're talking about.

AE (52:22.429)
Yeah.

AE (52:28.538)
Exactly.

Ayana McPherson (52:28.62)
Because when you have one minute and forty six seconds to answer that question, you gotta know why. You don't even have time to say what it could be and it might be. No. It either is or it isn't and you gotta move on. And when you don't know, you gotta skip it. What is the rule and the perpetuities? You gotta skip it.

AE (52:31.775)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Facts. Take that, L, we keep it moving

Ayana McPherson (52:47.81)
You gotta know when to spend I was praying God don't put an essay about this because you know that I didn't even open that page of the book.

AE (52:55.388)
Bro, I had one. I can't miss spell perpetuity. Don't don't give me no don't give me no essay on perpetuity.

Ayana McPherson (53:00.844)
Okay. Don't okay. Cause it was not gonna work. But I feel like I had to pivot. I had to figure out I had two weeks. I was like, if you don't figure this out, you're gonna fail. So I really started like drilling myself. I reached out for help. I called my friend Brianna. We we were on Zoom together every day. This I graduated in COVID, so we were on Zoom together every single day just for accountability.

AE (53:07.228)
Man Yeah.

AE (53:18.791)
Mm-hmm.

AE (53:22.296)
Mm. Yeah, gotcha.

Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (53:29.878)
When I went, we we really drilled Conlaw. We made up we made up songs. you know, we we we really sat there and and like we would just really kind of like press each other, like, okay, what's this? You don't know, go look it up. Okay, explain to me because I don't get it. You know, like when when your homegirl struggling, if you a real friend, you let me go learn this. She don't know it. Hold on. I don't know it either, you know.

AE (53:32.956)
Mm-hmm. Nice.

AE (53:41.127)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. I don't know what either facts, facts. Mm.

Ayana McPherson (53:56.609)
And and it was that community. It was it was my mom letting me use that office. It was it was everybody leaving me alone. My dad would cook me food. I mean, everybody my mom was when I was over, she was like, God, we can breathe again. I was so sick of you, you know. And but but I was running a strict program in this house because I had to I had to. I had to. And I really, I really and I started timing myself and I was like, you know what?

AE (54:03.272)
Mm. Mm.

AE (54:09.766)
BAAAA

AE (54:17.06)
It's needed. Fire, man.

AE (54:23.761)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (54:26.626)
have to finish. It was it was personal for me at that point. I was like, I have to finish. Like the L said I did not and this is you know, this is a barrier to entry. If you don't do this, you can't be barred. And so and I was like, God, I don't have it after COVID. I did half the, you know, law school on Zoom school of law. I'm like, I don't have no more attention span.

AE (54:28.304)
Mm. Mm.

AE (54:38.514)
Man. Right.

AE (54:48.808)
Zoop school of blood.

Ayana McPherson (54:52.802)
To do to do this again. You know, I wanted it one and done. That's what I literally prayed for. So yeah, I really locked in. I did all the things that I could do. I got the reps in. I I got U World at the end of it. 'Cause I realized the lectures weren't working for me. It wasn't sinking in. What was working was doing the problems. And after a while I started seeing patterns and I was like, Conlo, it's real easy. You know, and like everything got easy when I started doing enough of those problems and actually,

AE (54:54.704)
Getting the facts. Done the facts.

AE (55:05.074)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mm. Mm. So I have to click.

Ayana McPherson (55:22.114)
figuring out how I learned and and implementing that and figuring out the why. That's the biggest question. And honestly, even as an attorney, that is the question I ask every single time. Why? And it always gets me to, you know, what I really need, the root of the problem, how to explain it to somebody, all those things. Why is so important.

AE (55:22.237)
Yeah.

AE (55:42.419)
That's amazing. And I feel like when it comes to the bar exam, there is no balance. I feel like people need to everybody learns it eventually. So I don't feel like we need to like inspire people or educate people on that. Like you're gonna learn it regardless of whether you're gonna listen to us or not. But there is no balance when it comes to the bar exam. You have to be all in. There was never at the maybe in the beginning I probably thought I could like still have somewhat of a life, but no. There's no way it needs all of you. It it needs everything.

Ayana McPherson (55:48.141)
No.

Ayana McPherson (56:07.951)
No.

Yeah, you need sleep. You need I mean I yeah, you need sleep. Your brain needs to like mull over like, okay, so you know, what's the difference here between I remember all of the criminal law stuff, it was like, was there a breaking? Or was that door unlocked?

AE (56:12.859)
Yeah.

AE (56:16.712)
Mm-hmm.

AE (56:27.176)
Was there an entering? Did you actually enter? Was there a taking? Did you take? Did you take it and then remove it?

Ayana McPherson (56:31.758)
Okay. What did you take? You went in there and looked around. I don't know what w might have been a trespass. Not you know what I mean?

AE (56:40.548)
Right, right. You may have took something and then you it dropped out your pocket while all of a sudden the house is it a take all that. my gosh.

Ayana McPherson (56:47.2)
You see what I and so it gets so granular and you gotta know like here are the elements. This is why, you know? But but it was so much simpler to me than law school. All of them cases in law school that Panoyer and Paul's graph, I was like, this is excessive.

AE (56:52.752)
Got PTSD. Yeah, yeah.

AE (57:04.294)
Doing too much, yeah. No, you're right, 'cause we didn't use no case law on the bar exam.

Ayana McPherson (57:08.364)
When I found out half of those cases we were learning were overruled right after that, I said, You made me read this confusing document.

AE (57:13.448)
They're all they're all bad law.

AE (57:23.398)
Nah facts. But it was it's it still helped 'cause even this week I was briefing for emotion. It's like y I now had the skill of briefing a case. I know where to look, I know what to read, I know what to extract, and all those things is was definitely still helpful. But yeah, on the bar exam, we ain't used none of them case law. It was crazy.

Ayana McPherson (57:30.828)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (57:36.073)
Mm-hmm. No. And I and I think that's probably why I did better at it, because I'm a transact transactional attorney. You know, like I really was like, what is the rule? That's it. I don't need all this case law to tell me all these things. And I think that's something that needs to be said more too to law students. Is like everything is not litigation. Law school is taught from a litigation perspective. It's not taught from a transactional perspective unless you're doing the clinics and the drafting classes and things like that. So you kind of have to, you know.

AE (57:43.624)
Hmm.

Right.

AE (58:02.416)
Right. That's good.

Ayana McPherson (58:06.602)
recognize I'm not saying that we don't look at any law. Yeah, sure. If there's a new you know, some new case law coming down from the Ninth Circuit, that's California about, you know, c Hollywood is all of Cal that's their market in the same way like Ford is the market in Detroit and like all these other things, right? Like that's their market. So when the case law does come down about something, you know, that's changing something, maybe a lot a lot of what I do sometimes

AE (58:13.373)
Mm-hmm.

AE (58:19.688)
Right.

AE (58:23.632)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (58:36.258)
Productions choose to shoot in certain places because of the tax credit that they'll get in those places. so when you see like legislation being changed and and certain things that affect what it is that you're doing, sure, yes, we look at the case law, we know what's going on, and and the law school does give you that that skill to be able to interpret that. But by and large, am I reading a case every day? No.

AE (58:49.884)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

AE (58:58.717)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (59:03.71)
No, I need to know what the union regulations are. You know, those those types of things impact what I do, but in a in a more regular way than, you know, just generally reading cases every day and applying them to facts. Like I'm not really doing that.

AE (59:07.34)
But yeah.

AE (59:19.43)
Got you. Man, that's so good. All right. So you you you passed the bar exam. What was your first job at a law school?

Ayana McPherson (59:25.666)
The one I have now. Yes.

AE (59:27.622)
Really? Wow. What was that application process job getting processed like?

Ayana McPherson (59:35.211)
You know, I feel like I always have a story, but these are good stories. I hope you all extract the lessons. But no, but seriously, one of my really good friends, Maya Day, I always speak about her in my story. She is so amazing, but also she was so helpful in my journey. again, I graduated in and around COVID, so

AE (59:38.318)
That's a good

AE (59:45.917)
Mm-hmm.

AE (59:58.043)
Okay.

Ayana McPherson (59:58.509)
I couldn't really go out and network and meet people. So I literally went on LinkedIn and I found people who had careers that were similar to what I wanted. but I wasn't, and here's the key: I was not looking for partners. I was looking for people who were not far away from where I was. Like I was looking for the next step. And she was an associate at this firm. And I was like, okay, she's doing really good work. Maybe I could reach out to her.

AE (01:00:07.965)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:00:26.438)
more likely for her to respond, you know what I'm saying? And someone who's like super busy partner. She responded. We set a call. she was cool. I'm I was I'm I'm sure she thinks I was cool at this point. I love you, Maya. and we we started to you know we just started be becoming friends like at that point. And then one day she reached out to me and she was like, hey my firm is looking for interns. Do you want to work here? I'm like, girl, yes. so

AE (01:00:28.658)
Yeah.

Yeah.

AE (01:00:38.184)
Yeah. So Maya.

AE (01:00:46.92)
Ayana McPherson (01:00:54.794)
She sent my information to them. I interviewed. I got the internship. I interned there. dur I actually ex turned there during the semester. And then I worked every s semester I could in law school. I wanna also emphasize that for law students. You know, when you look at that resume, you have one L summer and two L summer. I was like, I don't only want two opportunities to work somewhere. I'm working every semester. I took every single I I'm pretty sure I had like four or five.

AE (01:01:05.042)
Nice.

AE (01:01:19.527)
Right.

Ayana McPherson (01:01:24.012)
jobs through through law school.

AE (01:01:25.574)
Man. So you are you saying jobs like paid jobs or internships? You mean externships? Okay.

Ayana McPherson (01:01:28.822)
Externships. So and honestly both because I maxed out how much I could get credit for. And so then the firm started paying me. My last semester with them I got paid. yeah, because I was like, I I'm trying to learn this thing. I'm trying to, you know, be a part of this. Like let's let's go all in. So yeah, I ended up interning with them and then right before I graduated, they offered me a job at the firm. So

AE (01:01:40.168)
Fire.

AE (01:01:44.604)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:01:57.517)
I got that job and I've been working it ever since. So it's been five years as an associate, but one year as an intern. So I've been with them for about six years.

AE (01:02:07.752)
So without giving too much information, can you tell us like the biggest deal or biggest project you've worked on or your most fun project you've worked on? 'Cause you've been at this firm?

Ayana McPherson (01:02:19.794)
Ooh, that's hard. Biggest.

AE (01:02:21.616)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:02:27.604)
I probably I wouldn't say biggest. What I would say is most fun and the ones that I have created really good relationships with. I would say Dexter. you know, I worked on Dexter Original Sin, which was kinda like a prequel, and now I'm working on Dexter Resurrection. And that show is one of my favorites because there's some really interesting legal issues that come up. You know, Dexter is a serial killer, he's like generally saran wrapping people to tables and just like killing

AE (01:02:29.927)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

AE (01:02:53.696)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jeez. A lot of blood. Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:02:57.258)
Lots of killing, you know, like so, you know, there's there's a lot of interesting lots of blood. Yeah. So there's a lot of interesting issues that come up with the locations and also, you know, you notice in Dexter there's lot of flashbacks. So with reuse, you know, there's a lot of things that come up with that. Obviously, you know, reading scripts and clearance and and all all the things, guest stars, they have huge guest stars on Dexter.

AE (01:03:10.608)
Mm.

AE (01:03:22.856)
I mean

Ayana McPherson (01:03:23.714)
But it's a universe unto its own. So it's really interesting. And I've had a really great time working with that team. I really have had a great time working with them because, even their PAs, you know, when they're on set, they're looking, they're sending pictures. like, is there an issue with this? Should we move this out of the shot? Like, can I get this? Should we cover this graffiti? Like, you know, they're really into it. And and to me, it reminds me of my time in dance, being very hands on. So

AE (01:03:30.48)
Mm.

AE (01:03:47.736)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Ayana McPherson (01:03:49.697)
I love that team. But I also love like so many of the other teams I work for too. I think for Dexter specifically, that was one of the first shows that I worked on by myself as an associate and really leaned on not what I learned at the firm, but who I was as a person. That that is why Dexter is super special to me because

AE (01:04:10.269)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:04:14.144)
I got to kind of organize it in the way that my mind works. You know what I mean? Like here here's my systems. Here's the way I think about things. I was able to get on the phone with Paramount and build some really Paramount Showtime and build some really good connections there just by saying, you know what, I don't understand this. Let me get on the phone. And then they would just parse through the deal and be like, Okay, listen, this language means this and that language means that. And so I had some really good connections and

AE (01:04:21.97)
Hmm.

AE (01:04:28.348)
New

Ayana McPherson (01:04:41.494)
It just came at a time where I was really finding my voice. So, you know, I'm really happy to still be a part of that team three seasons later. Yeah.

AE (01:04:50.012)
That's amazing. And you most recently worked on a project, If I go, will they miss me, which is out right now, which is amazing with Daniel Brooks, Jay Nicholson. And it's crazy when when you did the onboarding, I told you this. When you did the onboarding and I saw that you worked on our project, I I told you, I was like, my me and my wife was literally sitting down saying, We need to go watch this movie, because just from the trailer alone and it being black-owned, black directed, Daniel Brooks, Dale Jay Nicholson, and all these dope black creators, you were like, Man, we gotta see this.

Ayana McPherson (01:04:54.998)
Yes, yes.

Ayana McPherson (01:05:19.756)
Yeah.

AE (01:05:19.802)
And so when I saw that you worked on it, I was like, yo, that's amazing. How was it working on working with this film?

Ayana McPherson (01:05:26.604)
Yeah. it was absolutely amazing. That is another one of the teams where like, you know, shout out to Spark Features. They're absolutely amazing. And they they work on projects that tell r stories about real people. And the last couple of projects I worked on with them, you know, were about specifically black families and and fatherhood and and black men. And and I really

AE (01:05:35.911)
Yeah.

AE (01:05:40.359)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:05:54.861)
I love that they are bringing a voice to a particular type of issue. I'm not and and doing it well too. Like for if I go, they shot in Watts. And I thought that was great, right? Like it's an indie film, so they didn't really have the luxury of like shooting on a studio lot that looks like Watts. Like they went to Watts. and that team, you know, Danielle Brooks, we met her at the after party, and she was absolutely amazing, super kind.

AE (01:06:03.644)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:06:24.742)
you know, willing to just speak about her experience. And she's been doing an amazing press tour. I know if you've seen any of it, but she's been great. And the director, Walter, he's been great. Like everyone on that team was so tapped in and so ready to make art that they felt would affect the world. And again, like these are things as a creative for me.

AE (01:06:24.85)
Yeah.

AE (01:06:32.025)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

AE (01:06:42.652)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (01:06:53.984)
It it's touches home, you know, like it's it's a little bit of like this is why I came to do this work. I didn't really, you know I think some people really care about being a lawyer for the sake of being a lawyer. And I think I do because, you know, I worked really hard about for it, but I also care about what is the end product of the thing I'm doing. Is that is it raising awareness for something? Is it, you know

AE (01:07:11.015)
Yeah.

AE (01:07:19.015)
Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:07:20.238)
Is it just being in the space? Is it representation to show somebody else that they can do it too? Is it sharing these stories like what you and I are doing right now? So, you know, I really think about when when things are really connected to people's real lives and stories and it's just a beautiful thing. So I think that that team specifically really has something to say and they said it in that film and I'm really, really glad to have been a part for sure.

AE (01:07:25.298)
Yeah.

Yeah.

AE (01:07:44.274)
Yeah.

AE (01:07:49.243)
Amazing, amazing. So I think that's a perfect way to close out the whole lawyer podcast. But before we do that, we have a segment called the closing argument. I'm gonna give you a word that I will not tell you the definition of, and you have to use it. Now, the closing argument, you're just leaving the audience with some gems. Whether it could be something we talked about today. our audience is young lawyers and baby, sorry, law students and baby attorneys, baby lawyers.

Ayana McPherson (01:07:57.804)
Okay.

Ayana McPherson (01:08:01.764)
my god.

AE (01:08:18.524)
So anything you will leave the audience with. the and it has to be in closing argument form. the word of the day is anochrinistic.

Ayana McPherson (01:08:28.142)
I'm nervous. I'm nervous. No, no, no, no. I knew about the anoprinistic.

AE (01:08:35.412)
Anachronistic. I can spell it for you. I can't use it in a sentence. I can pronounce it for you a little better. Anachronistic. Anachronistic. Use it the best way you can in your closing argument.

Ayana McPherson (01:08:51.446)
And I can't look this up right now.

AE (01:08:53.41)
Can't look it up. I'll I'll tell you the definition after. Use it the best way you can. Get cre use your creative mind, the dancing mind. Come together.

Ayana McPherson (01:08:59.98)
Yeah.

Okay, wait, so spell it for me real quick.

AE (01:09:06.446)
A N A C H R O N I S T I C

Ayana McPherson (01:09:14.83)
Okay.

AE (01:09:15.022)
Anachronistic.

Ayana McPherson (01:09:17.974)
I'm about to get real creative with this because I have no idea. I have no idea what that word means. So if I was if I was giving advice to a student named Anna, last name Christic, you know, what I would say is, and the gym that I would leave her with is, you know, don't leave yourself behind. If you're gonna be a lawyer, take your whole self into the experience.

AE (01:09:19.688)
I'm a little I'm excited. I'm so excited.

AE (01:09:26.406)
You might hit it.

AE (01:09:39.196)
That's hilarious.

Ayana McPherson (01:09:47.573)
And really just immerse yourself. Like really learn, yes. But also don't forget the things that, like, if somebody were to remember you from childhood and say, What did I think she was gonna be? What did I think she was gonna do? Like those things that are the essence of you, bring them with you. Because what I've come to find is every internship I've taken, every job I've had, every person I reached out to and stayed in contact with has all been

AE (01:10:00.296)
Mm.

Ayana McPherson (01:10:17.004)
Because I truly believed in something or I truly wanted something or I was truly connected to something that I felt like could make a difference. And if I was following the advice of go to big law and do the writing competition and you need to be on law review, I don't know that my path would look how it looks now. I think I would have been going so far left just to come back right. You know what I'm saying? I would have been s going so far to what people

thought I should have done done just to come back to where I was really trying to go. And I already had everything I needed within me. I was already a dancer. I was already a people person. I was already good at, you know, negotiating and talking to people and I was already good at those things. And so leaving them behind really would do me a disservice, you know? so I would say, Anna Chronistic, bring your whole self to the profession.

AE (01:10:59.912)
Mm.

AE (01:11:14.513)
Yo.

Ayana McPherson (01:11:15.152)
And let that be your guide.

AE (01:11:18.268)
Man, amazing. Ayana McPherson's ladies and gentlemen. I'm not going, I'm not blowing smoke. That might have been the best closing argument because anachronistic means something is chronologically out of place, old-fashioned, or belonging to a different time period. So it's crazy that you use the name as a name because what you said was take your whole self with you. So it's kind of like the opposite of what the name don't leave it.

Ayana McPherson (01:11:19.574)
Back in April.

Ayana McPherson (01:11:36.366)
my god.

AE (01:11:46.47)
Don't don't be old-fashioned, but take it with you. Like take your whole self with you to a different period of time. That's deep. That's crazy.

Ayana McPherson (01:11:48.46)
Yeah, yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:11:53.698)
You see what I'm trying to say? I try to get the people there. I try to give the people what they need. I hope Anna

AE (01:11:59.384)
Anna chronistic, you got some gems just now, bro. Come on, Anna. And Anna Anna means against. And then chronistic means time. Chrono Kronos means time. Against time. So take your host up. Wow. Great job, Anna. That was that was amazing. mm-hmm.

Ayana McPherson (01:12:02.223)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Thank you. Thank you. No, that's like the bar exam when they just put that Wills exam in there. you know, they gave us one of the topics and it was Wills. And I was like, ooh, y'all put this in here at the last minute. I have no clue. But a will is, I don't have time to do that. The will is, and I just got to write and it's like you kind of just gotta go with it. So yeah, I had no idea about Anna and Chronistic, but you just gotta tap in sometimes and make it up, which is what I did for that moment.

AE (01:12:29.646)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Go yeah, thick on your feet. Yeah.

Shout out to the chronistic family, the chronistic family tree. That was amazing. Ayana, thank you for being on. Your story is all of perseverance, creativity, going for it. And I can't, I can't imagine the amount of people who's gonna be blessed by your story. So keep killing it, keep growing. And thank you for blessing the pod with your story. This was this was so fun. Of course, of course. All right, this has been The Whole Lawyer.

Ayana McPherson (01:12:45.62)
Exactly. We just gotta make it up. Make it up.

Yeah.

Ayana McPherson (01:13:03.918)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.