The Whole Lawyer Podcast

Tonee (00:00.648)
Welcome back to another episode of The Whole Lawyer. I am your co-host today, Toney Earl, but we will not be joined by Akeem Earl today. We'll actually have a very special guest today. Her name is Eric Raizu. She's actually back on the podcast. You should be sure to check out one of her earlier episodes when she joined us on The Whole Lawyer, where we talked about some similar topics that we're going to get into today, particularly being a mother in the working field.

So, Era, thank you for being back. We have some exciting stuff to talk about. I mean, I don't know about exciting, but some interesting stuff to talk about. We're gonna get into the Lindsay Clancy trial today. this is a hot topic that we've been seeing in our news feeds. so I first just wanna let everybody be reintroduced to you, Era. So go ahead and tell the listeners just a little bit about yourself, what it is you do. and then we'll get into your thoughts on this trial.

Era Kryeziu (00:58.76)
Hello everybody and thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to be back. I am first a mother, second an attorney. I do a little bit of property damage, well a lot of bit of property damage and a lot of personal injury, but a lot of trial work. So that is that's what I'm doing whenever I'm not being a mother.

Tonee (01:19.022)
And we love we love Mother Era. We really do. She's the best. and we love her cute baby. All right. So I wanted to have you on to talk about this Lindsay Clancy trial because this is I don't know that it's the first of its kind, but I it's it's bringing up it's it's bringing up a conversation that I think people are spending a lot of time on, and it's really good that we're spending a lot of time on on on this trial.

Because there's a lot of legal nuance, mental health nuance that I think is important for people to discuss. So I want you to tell me kind of just your overall thoughts on the trial. You know, do you think do you think the outcome was typical? Do you think that kind of one hunger is completely wrong? Like what t tell me what your thoughts are.

Era Kryeziu (02:17.936)
So I have a lot of thoughts. but first, I don't know that the Hung I mean, I'm not sure. But I don't think we can say the Hung Jur was wrong, right? This is like obviously a case that provoked emotion in a lot of people, and people were on all sides of the spectrum. I can one hundred percent understand why everybody else, other than the one, found the way that they did. But I don't know that we can fault this one person for having the feelings that he did. I mean, it was just a very special

very, you know, strong case in terms of provoking emotions in all of the different ways. my own thought is that it should have been one hundred percent not guilty, first and for foremost. But to the extent that we're even talking about whether or not she did it, then I 100% don't think that she was criminally responsible for for doing it. So I would side with with the fence on this one.

Tonee (03:07.946)
Okay. And so just so all of our listeners can know what it is we're assessing, Lindsay Clancy was a Massachusetts labor and delivery nurse. These are facts that came out of the case. her children were Cora, who was five years old, Dawson, three years old, and Callan, who was eight months old. The children died in January 2023. Clancy subsequently attempted suicide and then survived. And she was ult ultimately tried on three counts of first degree murder.

Her mental condition around the time of the death became a central issue at her trial. and so the the trial's defense, Lindsay's Clancy's lawyer defense, did not turn on whether the children died because of Clancy. It centered on whether she was criminally responsible when she committed the acts. And so we were kind of discussing before we had started the pod this idea of her admitting to the act versus not disputing.

the the charges or or not charges but not disputing what the prosecution is claiming she did and so essentially a prosecution is is claiming she killed her three children it was a very just kind of grotesque scene she they're saying that she used these waistbands these exercise bands and strangled her children to death and my understanding is

Era Kryeziu (04:22.755)
Right.

Tonee (04:36.596)
her attorney is saying we don't dispute that she did those things. but even if she did do those things, she was not in in her right mind when those acts occurred. And so tell me your thoughts, Era, on this idea of like people saying, Well, she admitted to it, but you're not necessarily thinking that's the case.

Era Kryeziu (04:53.186)
Right. Well, first I think that there's a lot that we saw as like the, you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeenth jurors from home that the actual jurors did not see while they were there, right? And a lot of those being some of the motions that were argued. So is it true that there was a motion to sort of bifurcate the trial and at that point defense was saying we will agree that, you know, the murder is not disputed, just the criminal responsibility part. But the prosecution, they they fought that motion and

Tonee (05:05.474)
Facts.

Era Kryeziu (05:22.692)
that they didn't deny that motion. So the trial was going forth on both. and I have thoughts on why the defense may have wanted to do that, right? And for starters, if they had sort of bifurcated it to where the point of, you know, who murdered the children wasn't really in question, that means that a lot of what prose prosecution got to show during the trial, like a lot of the the stuff that really tugged at people's emotions, they really wouldn't be able to show, right? Because it wouldn't be relevant at that point.

Tonee (05:49.43)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (05:49.444)
So I can understand why the prosecution would fight tooth and nail to not bifurcate it. So so there's that part of it, right? Like that was argued beforehand. That's not something the jurors knew about. I don't think that defense ever actually said the words in front of the jury that were, you know, that she did it, right? I don't know that that was ever admitted. I think the strategy was mainly focused on the sort of criminal responsibility part of it. And I

be really curious to talk to the defense attorney on why that was what it you know, what sort of the strategy he went with. Because for me personally, as an attorney, I'm looking at everything and I'm like, I've got all the doubt, all of the reasonable doubt on, you know, the timeline. And not to say that she I'm not gonna sit here and say, I don't I don't think she did or I don't know who did it. I don't know what happened. But what I do know is that I do not think the prosecution met their burden of showing beyond a reasonable doubt that she first starters

actually committed these murders. but I just think that there was a lot of misconception sort of conflating those issues, I think, because of some of those pretrial motions that happened, but that's just things that the jury didn't necessarily know or get to hear.

Tonee (07:01.078)
Hmm. That's fair. I mean, I wonder if it was more of like a let's not waste the jury's time. Let's not get into the semantics of like how these children ended up dead. These children were are were dead. The f the the evidence shows that they were strangled. There's an eyewitness who came home and you know, saw his wife in her state, saw the kids, and and I was watching a

kind of a recap and apparently the husband, Lindsay Clancy's husband had testified that two of them were in the process of dying and one was already dead when he came home. So and and he he there's testimony that Lindsay heard from some man to kill the children. so I I think it it I think the defense had to I think you're right in a sense that the defense had to be really sure.

Or at least really confident that if we don't dispute the actual acts and and like who committed the act, then we have a very strong case that regardless of if she committed these acts or not, she she's she can't be held criminally liable for them. And I think that was that I think that was what the defense was trying to do throughout the entire trial was get to this point. And, you know, just to get into the evidence and we we will get into like the discussion of

Postpartum depression versus postpartum psychosis in a minute. But this was actually a really interesting trial to watch because the prosecution was bringing out all this evidence about Lindsay Clancy being a great mother, that she she loved her kids. She was she was an amazing mom. And I'm interested, I'm interested to to know, like, did you kind of have a similar thought like I did, where I was like, well, yeah, she must have snapped. Like, if there's all this evidence that she's a great mom.

I think it's clear that to do something so heinous, you could not have been in your right.

Era Kryeziu (09:03.18)
100%. And I mean, I I think all of sort of all of the jurors other than the holdout juror kind of were saying the same thing, right? They they were really moved by the fact that not a single witness on that stand could come out and say a single bad thing about Lindsay as a mother. Like it not even, you know, Patrick himself could say that. It was very clear that she was a great mother, that she was really the one who kind of was bearing all the responsibility of taking care of these kids and like

the only thing that could have happened is that she could have snapped and I can understand why the defense would choose to go this route because it was possibly this sort of the safer route and possibly even closer to what what was the truth, right? But yeah, no one a hundred percent I think that that probably did play a big role on it. Like no one could say a bad thing about her. Not one. Every single prosecution witness felt like a defense witness to me personally. I'm watching this and I'm like, why would they call this person? It just didn't seem like they were helping

their case at all.

Tonee (10:01.706)
It didn't. And it was one of those things where I guess they were hoping it could be used as like you I I don't actually know what the prosecution was thinking. Cause character doesn't typically come up with criminal trials, especially not the prosecution bringing it up unless we're we're, you know, we're dealing with like some real aggression here. But it was i I I don't know. I thought that was an interesting tactic, and I and I felt like to me it was I felt like to me that holdout juror was thinking.

Era Kryeziu (10:12.76)
Yeah.

Tonee (10:31.776)
Well, who's gonna pay for this crime? Right? Like if if not her, then who? And and it it does that does bring me to I wanna know your experience as someone who has had a child. you know, how important is it that we pay attention to like postpartum and what women are going through after you know, during their pregnancy and after they've provided, you know, after they've gone through labor.

How important is it that we, you know, we have these conversations? What what did you go through? Right. Like how how how how can we kind of make sense of these acts that she's committed?

Era Kryeziu (11:13.486)
Yeah, yeah. Postpartum is a big one because it's it's such a unique and crazy experience and it's definitely not talked about, right? And it's actually brushed aside. And, you know, the people that are essentially making the laws about, you know, when women should or shouldn't go back to work or, you know, what should happen to after woman gives gives birth are people who never in their life could experience anything similar. They haven't and they they just can't, right?

Tonee (11:15.998)
Yeah.

Tonee (11:35.65)
Mm.

Era Kryeziu (11:38.316)
And it's just it's such a unique feeling that you would never be able to understand until you had a child. I think I would have seen this case very differently if I was had not had a child, had not gone through this experience versus seeing this case after. And I think that's why it resonated with a lot of moms, right? It's very rare that you see a case of this nature where the biggest supporters of letting this person go are people with children. You would expect that moms would be the first ones to be like, put her away, right?

Tonee (12:05.41)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (12:05.572)
But it's not. And think a lot of us were watching this trial and it was taking us right back to sort of maybe where we were postpartum. And I think what's very interesting is that a lot of not a lot, I mean, the women that are going through psychosis, that's very rare, right? I I don't have the exact statistic in my brain right now, but it is very rare. But a lot of us are experiencing sort of either postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, some type of a form of this. And no matter how sort of

Tonee (12:20.152)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (12:33.632)
less, I guess, extreme that ours was, we can still look at this and be like, no, I completely understand, even though I wasn't at that point, right? And fact matters, we are not taking care of moms. That's just is what it is. Like we we're not, because in no other developed country are women going back to work six weeks, four weeks after they're they are giving birth, right? We're the one of the only countries that does not have any sort of laws on maternity leave. And

That's just absolutely insane. Like no woman should be going back to work at six weeks or anything less than that, right? And so there really does need to be sort of this bigger discussion on how are we treating how are we treating moms, right? We know birth rates are declining, but why would w would women give birth when we go through what we go after we give birth? So the conversation definitely needs to be had. I'm not sure how much is going to actually be had, but it's something that really needs to happen in

And sort of urgently because it kind of is a very, very big issue that women in the US especially are going through given just the laws that we have around maternity leave.

Tonee (13:40.915)
Exactly. No, you're absolutely right. And I feel like some of the feedback or commentary I've heard on this case is well, we have to find her guilty because then women are gonna be thinking so thinking it's okay to kill their children. And it's like, can we be so for real? Can we be so for real? It's not like this is this is happening every day. And as much as people may want to strangle their children.

Era Kryeziu (14:00.398)
Right.

Tonee (14:09.334)
They're not actually acting on it. This isn't something that happens commonly. And I I think it's kind of sad that the the first thought for commentators isn't we really have to look at what our government is doing for women who are going through, you know, postpartum. And to your point, there is no federal maternity leave. If your job gives you maternity leave.

Era Kryeziu (14:30.116)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (14:36.92)
That's from the kindness of their heart. They're not required to do that. And so I and and what pisses me off is when jobs employers will be like, yeah, we we we believe we give generous maternity leave and it's like three weeks. Who is that generous for?

Era Kryeziu (14:41.902)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (14:52.472)
Right. Right. Right. Like women are still in diapers at least six weeks after giving birth. If you were to see a six week baby, you would know that that's not enough time. at all. And I I think the biggest early on in the case, the biggest thing that resonated with me personally was watching Patrick's testimony. And he said that he really noticed sort of this decline in her mental health around the time period when it was

Tonee (15:04.93)
That's not enough time.

Era Kryeziu (15:21.112)
time for her to go back to work. And I almost got chills on my whole body because that is when I noticed my own personal mental health decline, right? Is when it was the thought of like, my God, I have to go back to work and I have to leave this this child home. It really does take a toll on you. And I think many, many women, at least in the States, probably really resonated with that.

Tonee (15:28.632)
Mm.

Tonee (15:43.249)
for sure. I mean, I I I can't imagine. I I hear I I know that there's something that changes you as a person when you have a child. Like you become this whole new person and you have this new life being that you just love so much, usually. and so so I I definitely get that. I I definitely get the fear or the discomfort of having to go back to work, especially if you've only had a month.

Or two months to bond with your child, that's just not enough time. I think in Canada they get like 18 months to before they have to go back to work, which is to me is like, now that's generous. Like I still don't think that's necessarily enough time, but I think that's that's very generous. especially when you're getting paid.

Era Kryeziu (16:25.123)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Era Kryeziu (16:31.738)
I mean one hundred percent. Th I think something that really puts things into perspective is that we don't sell puppies before they're at least twelve weeks old, right? We don't separate a puppy from its mom before it's twelve weeks, but yet we separate a human child from their mom at six weeks and expect that everybody is just going to be okay.

Tonee (16:52.676)
that's such a good point. That is such a good point. Wow. I never thought about that. America is messed up, bro.

Era Kryeziu (17:00.666)
So mess up. So mess up.

Tonee (17:01.888)
What what would you say the effect of not having a I don't want to say not supported partner, but a partner who can understand the effects of postpartum and who like actively is trying to ensure you have all the like it it seemed to me like Patrick was not a very hands-on, you know, partner. And just probably a good father. They're always a good father, right? But

After you have a child, you know, and you get through the first six weeks where you're no longer in diapers, you don't need someone handing you all these things, but now you have feeding schedules and changing schedules and things like that. What is the effect do you think that you know, your partner has in whether you have a good postpartum or probably a not so good one?

Era Kryeziu (17:54.782)
my God, I think that plays a huge role, right? And don't get me wrong, you could have the most supportive partner but still go through postpartum. But I do think there's there's gotta be some correlation out there on, you know, bad partners and sort of how bad your postpartum depression, anxiety, or or any of that is. There's it's gotta be something out there. I mean, I think men on their own don't necessarily understand sort of the postpartum experience because they

Tonee (18:01.122)
Mm.

Era Kryeziu (18:22.254)
compare them they compare us to them, right? But they're like, but I'm also not sleeping. And this is also affecting me in this way. But they don't take into account the hormonal imbalance that women are sort of going through that they're not, right? So they can only see things from their own perspective from and that's it's kind of hard to to maybe feel for another person when you're not really able to understand where they're coming from. And it's it's just one of those situations that really is kind of complicated, right? And hard to understand. But

I think if you do have a husband, a partner that is supportive and is really making sure that you're taken care of, it's it's gonna make a difference, right? To s to some degree versus if you're home taking care of your three kids while somebody's out skiing, you know, or doing whatever it was that Patrick was doing, yeah, you know, that's you're not gonna be okay. You're not. I mean I think with one kid, one person

Tonee (19:12.717)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (19:16.608)
watching that kid is not enough. I like stand by the fact that you need like a three to one ratio for one kid. Like one to one is simply not enough. Two to one isn't enough. It needs to be three to one. For three kids, one adult to three, that is absolutely insane.

Tonee (19:31.83)
Yeah. And I know at moment at at times she tested there was testimony that there was a nanny who was helping her. And even the nanny had ex had said that like she was a great mother. It's not like the nanny would come and she would go and disappear and be away from the kids. It was like you said, like she just had that extra help to care for the kids. Okay. So go ahead, go ahead.

Era Kryeziu (19:52.12)
I'm but I just want it's just yeah, this case has a lot of moving parts, right? Because I think we also should talk about that extra help, right? The nanny was hired whenever she went back to work. And whenever Lindsay decided that she sort of couldn't go back to work and wanted to stay home, Patrick fired the nanny. So did he r was the nanny really there to help Lindsay? If she was fired whenever Lindsay wasn't going, you know, didn't go back to work and was home? I don't know.

Tonee (20:14.494)
Mm.

Mm.

Era Kryeziu (20:19.746)
Or wasn't any there to help Patrick, who was the one that was working from home? Yeah. It j yeah, the case just has a lot of nuance. A lot of nuance to the case.

Tonee (20:23.116)
Right. That's a good that's a good point. That is a good point. That is a really good point. Okay, so I I am interested to know like is there pieces of evidence or is there like one kind of big thing that l had you say there's reasonable doubt?

Era Kryeziu (20:44.104)
we I think there's a lot of things, right? So to me, the fact that the only sort of if we really look go back and look at the trial, right? The the main sort of narrator of what happened and sort of what what the doctors know and like what everybody's testifying to, there's a lot of Patrick said, Patrick told me, Patrick said, Patrick told me. The only person that this sort of confession was made to, right, about killing the kids is Patrick. but yet we have all of this testimony from

Tonee (20:46.018)
Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (21:13.562)
first responders that came to the scene who said she was in such a bad condition that she was only mumbling. So you're telling me that she went from saying full sentences to Patrick, telling him that, you know, she had killed the kids and this and that. But by the time first repo responders came, she all of a sudden wasn't able to talk. But that was the biggest red flag for me personally. and then there's, you know, a lot of issues with the timeline, right? That people had that people pointed out, the amount of time that it took the the body to have took

Tonee (21:32.014)
Mm.

Era Kryeziu (21:41.936)
cool, you know, Lindsay's body to get as cold as it did, and whether or not that was a re not a reasonable amount time, but was is the timeline really as Patrick is portraying the timeline to be? And then for I don't know, something that I just always seem to remember is I think they said Patrick left the house around 5 15 or something along those lines. But then there was a sort of firm wide email that he send to people at his job at around 524

Don't quote me on the exact numbers, but essentially after that time period of when he had left the house, that was sent from his laptop, which was at home. And so I there's just like a lot of sort of bits and pieces that to me, I'm I'm just like, wait, did they even prove that she did it? Because all we have is Patrick saying she did it. But then I'm also looking on the other hand, we've also got a Patrick who moved on really quick to a new wife. And we've got a Patrick that found this new wife in New York, where he also was conveniently taking a lot of

trips when Lindsay was postpartum. And just taking back a look at a lot of like the true true crime cases, right, that we've got, there's really nothing more dangerous than a man who wants a new family. Well we know that. We've seen that time and time again. And so I'm weighing all of these things I'm just like, I'm just not sold personally. I'm I'm not sold.

Tonee (22:54.606)
Mmm. That is that is a good point. And I and I will say, I when I heard he had moved on and like has a new wife and kids, I was like, something happened. I don't know. I don't know if it's what the narrative is that you know prosecution is putting forward. But I and I thought it was interesting. Akeem was like, a woman out here killing her kids and you go straight to it's the man's fault.

Era Kryeziu (23:09.818)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (23:23.412)
Because he has another family. Yes. I do.

Era Kryeziu (23:27.15)
Right, right, right. It's it no one is saying he doesn't get to move on, right? You get to move on. But the criminal trial's not even done yet and you've already moved that's there's just like so and the fact they look identical is kind of crazy to me too. But him aside, that's just kind of like one one of the things, right? but it there's just like a lot of things that came out through through the evidence that I'm like, hmm, I'm

It just makes you makes you think about what like what actually happened, right? I mean, there's a lot of the internet searches where there's these alleged searches about her you know, looking up how to commit suicide and whatnot. But when you look when they looked at sort of the metadata when those searches were made, it was at the exact same time that she was at a doctor's appointment with the kids. They were made from Patrick's laptop at home. And

I'm not saying he did it. I truly don't know what happened. But what I'm saying is if I'm on that jury, I have a lot of sort of reasonable doubt. A lot.

Tonee (24:22.71)
Yeah. Yeah. And and I and I do think, you know, it's a lot of people will ask, well, why didn't they put why didn't the defense put in any evidence to further support that it might have been Patrick? And I think it's important that people know that like that's not the defense's job. The defense

can try to sway, you know, the jury to think that somebody else may have committed this, but it's law enforcement and the prosecution's job to figure out who the actual murderer is. It's the defense's job to prove that it's not their client. Right? Or not prove, but like to sub to to well yeah, to prove that's their client. that is interesting. And I and I to to your point, Akiba and I were just talking like, look, I think we we gotta be real careful with these with

Era Kryeziu (24:48.078)
Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (24:56.751)
Right.

Tonee (25:11.038)
Easier I and I'm trying to be delicate how I say this, but you brought up that we're in this true crime world, we are seeing more stories of women being you know killed off by their significant others for whatever reason, usually because they found love elsewhere. and I and I think I think the hard part about the Patrick kind of be potentially being the perpetrator of.

Is that there was also a lot of evidence about her mental health, which I think had to had to be brought up in order for them to, you know, support their defense? but I so I do I do want to get into the to the evidence of her mental health a little bit and ask, was there anything you thought about how her healthcare professionals kind of handled what she was dealing with? Do you feel like

There might be any faults on them.

Era Kryeziu (26:14.116)
I think there was a lot of negligence for sure. I d I don't think that we can sit here and pinpoint one sort of medical professional and say it was because of him that hand her that this happened, right? It could have happened if it was anybody else. But I think it just goes to show how little we take women's concerns seriously, right? We are piling sort of antipsychotic on top of antipsychotic on this lady, not really doing much of a checkup, just you know, doubling medication after only taking it for a week, not, you know, really

doing the work we need to be doing to make sure that it's the medicine is doing what it needs to do and that it's sort of having, you know, the effects on on a person, right? They're just giving her, I mean, the amount of there was a timeline that they, I'm pretty sure, presented at trial that showed sort of what the met the medicines that she was on and in the short timeframe that she was on all of these antipsychotic medication. And that alone I was just like, my God, like how how could this happen, right? And

I they did I think show a lot of sort of miscommunication not miscommunication, but just lack of communication between the providers. I think they showed a lot of that at the trial and a lot of not returning phone calls and, you know, really just the provider providers not being on the same page, or maybe not not caring sort of enough to kind of inquire and see what what somebody else may have prescribed and whatever that may be. But I th I definitely think there is a lot of negligence that was involved. And I think we'll probably see a lot of that play out in the civil trial. I don't know if that one's gonna be

Tonee (27:18.646)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (27:42.68)
publicized or not, but personally I would love to see that one. But I think at least we'll hear a lot about that.

Tonee (27:45.601)
Yeah, I think that would be good. Yeah. No, I I think I I was really disappointed in what I heard surrounding the therapist and, you know, mental health counselors that she was dealing with. I know she had like kept a diary and and was journaling, you know, her thoughts and stuff like that. And to me it's just so sad to think that you you don't want to feel this way, but you're feeling this way. And and

Era Kryeziu (28:02.928)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (28:10.862)
We've all seen the commercials for like being on antidepressants and things like that and the laundry list of side effects that come with them thoughts of suicide, harming yourself and things like that. So I wouldn't be surprised if she had a psychotic break and you know she unfortunately committed those acts. how how would you

Era Kryeziu (28:19.108)
Right.

Tonee (28:38.366)
How do we go on from here? Right. Like is it fair to is it fair to say when a woman when a when anybody has a psychotic break, they're not criminally responsible. They just get the help that they need, the mental help that they need. And, you know, the loss is the loss. Like how do we acknowledge the lives that have been lost, but also realize that we have to support the mental health of the person who did this?

Era Kryeziu (29:04.912)
I mean, I it I think it definitely is a case, it's gonna be a case by case situation, right? There can never be sort of I don't I personally don't think there can ever be a sort of a blanket, like this is what we do in these situations. but I and I also don't want there to, I think, be a misconception that anybody that is having like any psychotic breakdown is really a free pass, right? But I think the key point is like when you were having the psychotic break, were you in a position where you were able to tell what is right and what is wrong, right? Because you can have depression and know that killing somebody is wrong.

Tonee (29:09.048)
Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (29:34.788)
You you know, you you can have bipolar know that killing somebody is wrong, but were you able to tell right from wrong in that given moment? I it and I think that is kind of something that is pretty difficult to prove, right? But in this case there was sort of an overwhelming amount of evidence that there's just no way she was in her, I guess, right mind, or that there's just no way that she fully if if she did do it, there's no way that she fully at that point understood what was actually happening, right?

there was just an overwhelming amount of evidence. And it it just it's gonna have to be a case by case basis. But I really don't I really don't know how we sort of, you know, move on and what what needs to be done, but is it's evident that something needs to be done.

Tonee (30:16.568)
For sure. And and I wanna go into that a little bit, the criminal responsibility. So in Massachusetts, where where this case is happening, they follow the McCool standard, I think, McCow maybe standard. it which in substance basically says a person is not criminally responsible if because of mental disease or defect the person lacked substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality slash wrongfulness of the conduct or

Era Kryeziu (30:27.791)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (30:45.868)
To conform the conduct to the requirements of the law.

So essentially, once once lack of criminal responsibility was raised, the Commonwealth had the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Clancy was criminally responsible. So the question isn't, you know, did Lindsay prove that she was insane? The Commonwealth had the burden to prove that she was criminal criminally responsible. I I won I feel like when we went through Crim Pro and we were learning like the McNaughton test and the insanity defenses.

Era Kryeziu (31:19.6)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (31:21.83)
I still don't know how people were like proving them. Do you think like a jury of lay people who haven't gone through law school can like really say that they understand this definition and they understand what they needed to decide?

Era Kryeziu (31:26.714)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (31:41.974)
There's no way. I mean, I'm I w I I guess we would have really have to see and I don't know if this was if they I'm sure they did. I'm sure they told us what the jury instructors were out loud and I've hopefully they sort of broke it down for them. But on if you know if a lay person being sent on that alone, you know, is in the to deliberate, I don't know that they're really gonna be able to figure out what the heck that means. but I also seem to remember that i I f I feel like in most other states, right, it's the defendant's burden to prove their defense. And if that was, you know, sort of insane or this like I wasn't criminally responsible.

So I think it's really interesting that Massachusetts has does the opposite. I kinda like it. I think the prosecution should have to prove all of the things that they want to put somebody, you know, away and strip them of their freedoms and rights. Like they yeah, you should have to be able to prove all that beyond a reasonable doubt. But I thought that was interesting because I didn't know that there were any states that actually sort of had the burden for that defense, I guess, on the prosecution.

Tonee (32:36.974)
I thought that was interesting too. And I think that's probably why the as we mentioned earlier, the motions that kind of were going forward were so that the prosecution could just put on enough evidence so that the jury wouldn't even think about criminally responsible or not. They would just kind of focus on this is what happened and and this is what she did. I I agree. I don't think that.

Era Kryeziu (32:57.668)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (33:06.318)
I would be able to decipher whether someone can appreciate the criminality or wrongfulness of their conduct or whether they've they thought their conduct could conform to the law. I I was kind of focused on this idea that I think there was like two people who had testified that Lindsay had told them that somebody told her she needed to kill her children and that her time was up. And to me,

That would probably be the thing that kind of gets me stuck because I would think, well, if someone's having to tell you this because something's too late, I think there is some type of appreciation that it's wrong. Right. Like if there's this idea does that make sense? Like if there's this idea that you have to do this now or it's too late, I think there's something, there's some appreciation that what I'm about to do is probably not right.

Era Kryeziu (33:49.36)
Yeah.

Era Kryeziu (33:59.086)
Yeah. No, I mean I I would agree. And honestly, I think the prosecution's case would been a lot stronger on that if they didn't bring all of those witnesses to talk about how good of a mom she was, you know. If we didn't have all of that, then I I I don't think there would be a I guess a lot to work with and there would maybe be more that would sort of lead me to consider things differently, possibly. I d I I'm not sure personally for me that it would really change my opinion much, but

I think for the sort of for the average person, and that's kind of the biggest thing all of the jurors talked about is like, why would this mom that is so great kill their kids, right? Like it is it's insane. This is some sort of a a Kathy Ann's Casey Anthony situation, right, where she's going and getting Cela V tattooed on her body like two days after her d you know, whatever it was that her daughter disappearing. Somebody that truly didn't want their kid. This is somebody that is pretty I mean, you had Patrick's mom testifying, Patrick himself, right? Like these

Tonee (34:42.445)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (34:54.968)
you know, it wasn't like Lindsay's mom, sister, dad. It was people on his side too that were there supporting her and him himself. Like I think he put out a statement saying that he truly doesn't believe that she, you know, was criminally responsible for this. So I think all of those together just pointed to the fact that she probably wasn't. And I think prosecution knew that, right? Which is why I think they fought tooth and nail to sort of not bifurcate so that they could tug at the juror's emotions with

you know, showing them the the onesie the kid was wearing. Like, yeah, n you know, none of us are devils, right? If I'm sitting on a jury and I'm seeing the onesie of a child that was killed, that is going to make me feel some type of way. It's gonna make me feel very, very sad and angry at the person who might have done that, right? And I think that was kind of the prosecution's entire goal is just make them so upset about what happened that they're really not thinking about what she was going through. It's just sort of this happened and that's that somebody needs to be punished and

Tonee (35:49.646)
Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (35:53.826)
It's gonna have to be Lindsay.

Tonee (35:56.053)
Right, right. And I I I don't know if you know this, but if she's f found, you know, not criminally responsible, she gets sh sh she'll still be like in a institution, no? Like Yeah. Yeah. That's what

Era Kryeziu (36:08.0)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think she'll still be institutionalized. She's not gonna be free in her house, like

Tonee (36:13.47)
Exactly. Yeah. Exact. And I think that was something people were not really understanding was it's like, you know, she's not gonna go to prison, but she's gonna get the help she needs, right? Because again, they're not disputing that, you know, the kids died by her actions. They're just stating she was not in her right mind to to know what she was doing. all right, I d I think we have

Era Kryeziu (36:19.428)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (36:43.256)
Sufficiently discussed, but I do want to give you an opportunity to bring up anything that maybe we haven't discussed that you think our audience should know.

Era Kryeziu (36:52.956)
I just have something on my mind that I just forgot. But one thing that I actually do think I think it's gonna be really interesting to see what the new strategy is in the new trial. And if because doing also trials in this day and age, right, especially when they're publicized, and then you've got people from home going in and pointing out X, Y, and Z. And maybe look, attorneys aren't perfect, right? I'm sure there's things that an outsider watching our trial can point out and be why would they do that? And then you're sitting there like, I don't know, why didn't I do that? Right. Like, I wonder to what degree.

defen the defense attorneys took in sort of the theories and the holes that were and b both sides, right? Prosecution too. The holes that were being poked in everything that was coming from the internet and how that will play a role in the new trial if if there there is one, which I assume they probably will bring the charges back. But I think that's going to be really interesting to see that and how they're going to find an unbiased jury. I mean I don't know a single person. I was at you know in Europe this summer in Kosovo talking to

Tonee (37:30.434)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (37:51.738)
friends there but I wouldn't even expect to know much about it. And they're all like, my God, are you watching this trial? Like this it's you couldn't even find somebody at this point out of the United States that would be unbiased. I think everyone has heard about it and everyone has a feeling about it, you know, feels a certain way about it. So it's gonna be really interesting, I think.

Tonee (38:06.026)
Yeah. Yeah. It it is gonna be interesting. And I and I think the defense is gonna have to come harder. I think the prosecution is definitely going to I think everybody's been commentating on how the prosecution dropped the ball in trying to get their conviction. so I definitely think they're gonna come back you know, even harder. I I don't think they're gonna have a whole bunch of witnesses talking about how good

Era Kryeziu (38:23.32)
ridiculous. Yeah.

Tonee (38:33.194)
of a mother she is. I think they're really gonna just try to focus on the scene and you know, how it happened. I I know a a a key piece of evidence prosecution w had was pointing to the fact that there was some maneuvering on Lindsay's part to ensure that she was alone with the kids when that happened. And so I think the defense is going to wanna make sure they focus on even if that was the case, just because you're doing acts to lead up to something

Era Kryeziu (38:58.938)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (39:02.988)
doesn't mean you were in your right mind when you were doing those acts, right? That were that were leading up to it. So

Era Kryeziu (39:08.164)
Yeah. But I also have I I there's like anytime you point you say something, I have like more questions, right? 'Cause like people yeah we're saying like, well she planned this. Okay, fine, fine. A little bit let's say I believe you for a second. She's planning a murder. Why would she send her husband to the CDS that has the medicine that she needs? If I'm trying to buy myself time, because mind you, it's not I'm not, you know, trying to kill one person, it's three and that's

Tonee (39:14.83)
Yeah.

Era Kryeziu (39:32.942)
Killing somebody with an exercise band, I think they testify that that takes a lot of strength and it's not something that can be done very quickly. I'm not sending you to the CBS that I know has what you need. I'm sending you to the farthest CBS because I've called all of the ones close to us and none of them have it, right? And men aren't smart enough to look it up themselves. Like they're just gonna listen and go to the one you told them to go to. So it to me that's also like if she really was planning, I I don't know that I really buy the plant. To me, it really does seem like she just wanted the medicine.

For her daughter and it's everything I'm saying is if prosecution was able to prove she did it. So and no point am I conceding that she did it. If they were able to prove she did it. I don't know that I buy the whole the whole planning part and I do think something happened within that time period when he was gone because it just to me it does it doesn't really make make sense why she would do that. And actually another thing that I think came out was something about our

you know, her suicide attempts and made some Google searches about it was like some artery that she apparently looked up and it was like completely misspelled. And I think people on the internet were like, you know, what nurse would have misspelled that, right? Like it is anyways, so there was like a lot of different things. But actually I have one question for you. What do you think about the fact what do you think about the loan sort of the holdout juror, right? Because I think if we really stop and dissect why they so we we know at this point that this he was a man and then that he was a black man, right?

Tonee (40:42.84)
She's a labor and delivery nurse, exactly. Exactly.

Tonee (40:50.85)
Yeah.

Era Kryeziu (41:01.974)
What do you do you have any thoughts on what was going through his head? I have mine but I come kinda curious about yours.

Tonee (41:09.25)
I I feel like my thoughts are always unorthodox and they're never like on point. Cause I I don't know enough about this the the the lone juror. But what immediately came to my mind wasI personally think there was probably personal bias that he may have had that regardless of what you know the evidence had shown, he just was not gonna let this woman off the hook. I think it it's possibly could also be, you know, regardless of like his thoughts of women, maybe just his thoughts toward white women, right? Like

Era Kryeziu (41:41.658)
Mm-hmm.

Era Kryeziu (42:06.384)
Mm.

Tonee (42:06.958)
I I don't know that I can say the Lindsay Clancy trial would have gotten the same notoriety if she was a black woman who had killed her three children, right? Like I don't know that it would have been the same outcome. I think she probably would have been found guilty really quickly, right? so I I don't know. I think I think the first thing that comes to my mind is what is this man's bias when it comes to race, when it comes to women? I know there was some like digging into his

Era Kryeziu (42:17.562)
Right.

Tonee (42:36.236)
background that he had like a criminal record or domestic violence record. So, you know, that that would further lead me to believe he was probably biased if that's the case. But that's probably my thought.

Era Kryeziu (42:46.148)
Right. Yeah. And I mean not believing women, I I'm not sure that that's really even super unique to just like black men, right? I feel like that's kind of unique to men, you know, which is wild. But I think my initial thought, and this was me not knowing anything about this person, I'm sitting there thinking, like, why would this person do this? Right. And I'm like, hmm, black people are in jail for a lot less. We've got black people in jail for marijuana charges. And so I don't know if if I'm a black juror, maybe

Tonee (42:57.486)
I would agree.

Era Kryeziu (43:16.42)
You know, man, woman, maybe I'm sitting there maybe thinking the same thing, right? Like trying to sort of weigh or justify not putting someone in jail who you possibly believe has killed her three children when you know there is black people in jail for a lot, lot less. I don't know. I think it's interesting.

Tonee (43:35.159)
I would agree. I would agree. I also think there's the the idea of black mental health not being taken seriously, right? Like I think there's always pockets of like things that affect us that are just not taken seriously. And the way we say, like, women and and women dealing with postpartum not taken seriously. I think potentially, again, I think is it there's probably some self bias. Maybe he has people in his family who have dealt with mental health and didn't get the help that they needed, right? And and instead of, you know, receiving

Era Kryeziu (43:44.303)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (44:00.398)
Right. Right.

Tonee (44:03.274)
institution being institutionalized, they were thrown in jail, right? So I I agree. I I I think it was his personal bias that held held him out. I don't I can't say whether, you know, that's right or wrong. I think if even if it was his personal bias, everybody had a personal bias that was on that jury. And I'm sure even though the law requires that you not, you know, use that to come to your decision, I think they do. And I think

Era Kryeziu (44:07.322)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (44:17.786)
Right.

Era Kryeziu (44:23.162)
Mm-hmm.

Tonee (44:31.854)
To your earlier point, it's this next trial, if if they do go to trial, I I think potentially they could settle. I if they do go to trial, I think they're the jury is gonna have a hard time just focusing on the evidence and not bringing in the outside commentary and the things they've all gone through in their own life. It's gonna be hard.

Era Kryeziu (44:52.772)
Right. I mean, I don't know. If I'm a prosecutor, my if I'm bringing this case again, I would bifurcate. Knowing sort of all of the if if I can't get all the evidence I need to fill in the blanks, I would one hundred percent sort of bifurcate. But if I'm defense at this point, I'm saying, absolutely not. Now I see what people really think. I mean, you had the internet was outraged, I think. There was like this pretty large group of people that were like, Wait a minute, she didn't do it. I don't think she did it. I'm not sold, right? So

So curious to see how it's going to play out. If I if I was her defense attorney, there is no part of me that would advise her that plating out to anything that involves jail time is a good idea. But then again, I'm a you know just a civil attorney. What do I know? But that's kind of my my like up feeling. I'd be like, nope. Based on the public's reaction, I'm feeling pretty confident about a new trial.

Tonee (45:36.374)
Mm.

Tonee (45:49.763)
And that makes sense. Can you quickly discuss what the issues they would be bifurcating and like what that means?

Era Kryeziu (45:55.704)
I think that yes, so bifurcating would if they were to agree to bifurcate the trial, they would essentially agree to sort of split well, it can go different ways, right? They they could bifurcate it to the point where they would initially do one trial on did Lindsay do it. Depending on the outcome of that, they could then they would then move on to the the second trial, which is was she criminally responsible? Or they could defense could possibly sort of agree that yes, we did it, we don't need to.

establishes that they could stipulate to the fact that she did it and only have one trial which focuses on criminal responsibility. So it could go, I think, di different ways.

Tonee (46:35.66)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it'll be interesting to see how this ends up and maybe we'll we'll have another episode where we discuss the the final outcome once we learn what it is. But till then, Era, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insight. We appreciate all the time you've given. and thank you to our listeners. Don't forget to like.

Follow, subscribe, all of the things. check out our new website at evenaftermedia.com where you can see all the shows that are being currently produced. be sure to check out Era's biocard on our website as well to learn a little bit more about her. and we will see you next time on The Whole Lawyer.

Era Kryeziu (47:23.546)
Thank you.